Hunter, Andrew, and Michael discuss more adversaries of the outdoor industry, mainly subjects that surround the world of shotguns. Is a short barrel as good as a longer barrel? Is a sabot slug better than a rifled slug? Listen and find out as we break down these matchups and more.
Hunting, fishing, and all things outdoors. It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Welcome to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast with your host, Hunter Brooks.
All right, welcome to another episode of the Greentop Outdoors podcast. I got Andrew here and Michael Botello here today. Thanks for being here, guys. Yes, sir. Thank you. Of course. Um, we have a, another episode consisting of the topic consisting of adversaries of the outdoor industry. We did one a while back with, uh, you and Garren, I believe. Yeah,
Um, we talked about various things, um, things that are contrary to the two others. Yeah.
Some of 'em common myths, some of 'em contrary. It's, uh,
We're gonna get into her Chevy. We'll get into a lot of shotgun based adversarial things today. Screw-in choke versus fixed choke, things like that. Sabba slugs versus rifle slugs. But first, before we get into all this, man, tell us about this weekend, because it was, uh, it was a hell of a weekend for you. It was
Awesome. Yeah. Had a few
Weekend, and for you too, Michael. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yeah.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. We went to, uh, Shannon Dale Gun Club. Just, uh, maybe six, eight miles west of Stanton. Yeah. Beautiful, gorgeous
Shooting in the mountains.
Hundred degrees here, 92 there. Lot of shade. 92
Was nice then 92 felt nice, a
Nice 92 <laugh>, um, shot both of us shot really well this weekend and shot some just incredible terrain, incredible targets. The guys up there host a fantastic shoot. Everybody's polite as they can be. Yes, sir. No sir. Thanks for coming. Couldn't do this without y'all. And it's, you know, it's two sides. They need to shooters and we need a place to shoot, but man, they just, they, they just knock it outta the park. It's a private club, so anytime they open a door to, to guests, it is. I I can't
Wait to shoot first class. Yeah.
Good people. Good time.
Yeah. Um, good outcome.
Yeah, I shot, well, I shot really well.
I will say this about Andrew's, uh, performance. Um, the state shoot and the Commonwealth Cup are the two biggest shoots that you do in Virginia. And people circle those and they attend them. So the class average Andrew and I shoot in, uh, for those who don't know, there's a class system. The top class is masterclass. We shoot in that class together. Uh, and the average score on the first day, which is called the bison cup, was an 84 for a masterclass shooter. Andrew was eight targets ahead of anybody in that class. Now, there was another gentleman, David
Fours off the lead
<laugh>. Yeah. And
There's another gentleman, uh, David Collins Jr. A ridiculous shot. Yeah. Who came in with a 96 that day for Andrew,
For Andrew to regroup and beat the field. The next day was an 81 by 16 targets. Says a lot
Now. So you shot a 97 the next day, 97
On something. Yep. And it's two separate shoots. A lot of times separates An outta state or an outta town shoot is a 200 combined score. Right. And this is kind of unique, which I like. It's really good when you're winning. It's really good when you're losing, if you're shooting well enough to win your class, you kind of get bummed out. But if you're, uh, 81 1 day, 98 the next day, not a combined score shoot, you can win the Bison cup and the Commonwealth Cup. But you, they're not, the scores don't overlap. So it's not a, I didn't shoot a 180 9 at a 200, I shot a 92 and then a 97. Right. You scored separately. And the next day, Didi or David shot another 96, which is extremely impressive. Would've been almost impossible to beat two days combined. He would've won outright. Right. But it scored, you know, start fresh nine o'clock the next day.
And there was 2 96 s at 1 97 and, and you had the 97 7. And you, you are the Commonwealth Cup champion. I am the Commonwealth Cup champion. Right. On one more year. Congratulations. That's right. Yeah. Uh, first time I'm winning that shoot. It's a good, good hometown shoot to win. It's, it's, it carries some weight. It's, I, I don't, I certainly don't wanna sound like I'm bragging, but it's, it's, it's a significant shoot to win. Yeah. For a, a working man. For a guy who tries real hard, focuses real hard, it's a big shoot. Right on, man. He, congratulations. And Michael, how'd, how'd you do? Michael shot extremely well.
I shot within the class average, which was good for me. Um, you know, one of the big differences, just real quick, is that, uh, Andrew is as tough a competitor as he is a shooter. He's that good. And Andrew never puts in himself in a position to be behind or to, you know, start off on a bad foot. So the thing that I will do well is if I make a mistake and Andrew and I have shot together long enough that he sees it, if I make a mistake, I can correct that mistake. And I probably won't make it again. Andrew won't make the mistake the first time, but if he does, it doesn't rattle him because he's been put in a position to finish out. So he does a better job of not making a mistake ahead of time and finishing out where I have to recover from mistakes. So that's a big difference. Plus
If shooting's a lot like golf, you know? Yeah. You can look back on your, uh, scorecard and golf and the pars of 72 and you shine 81. I said, man, that double boge four, well, you still had a whole lot of holes left. Yeah. And did that double bogie put you at a 74 and you just ruined the next 10? Or did you overcome it and say, man, I was that close to a 96. Right. In golf. So you know it, how are you gonna handle that double bogan? Did you really overcome or did you lose two strokes? So, and I look at shooting the same way, and they're all worth the same amount. They throw a hundred targets. You get a hundred chills. Each bird has one point. Some of 'em are 10 yards size of my head. Some of 'em are 70 yard size of my aspirin.
So you always approach 'em different. But the big targets require big focus. The little targets require the same amount of focus, same amount of respect, but people don't value them the same. I gotcha. So when you're really hitting everything you need to hit all your bread and butter targets. Hunter Brooks is a 35 yard crossing man. If you hit all your 35 yard crossers, all the other stuff falls into place. Cuz everybody's gonna miss the big targets. 75 yard crossers hard to hit. Doesn't matter who you are. Right. But if you can put yourself at an 80 before you even start shooting, I'm gonna hit all the, all the Andrew style targets, I'm gonna earn the rest. It just, everything falls into place. Yeah. But it, it, all that is in sync with good focus, good rest, what you ate. You know, are you dressed comfortably? Is it hot? You're drinking enough water? It is a thousand factors to go into it. Yeah. Shooting good shells helps. Nice going helps. That's right. Doesn't make a shoe better.
And, and, but having a good perspective too is too, you can find anybody, uh, Andrew's a great ambassador to the sport. No one ever says a bad word about him. I mean, how could you, I mean, the guy, I got a couple,
I've been, I've been calling a few things
Than Andrew. I'll say this, you, you, you cannot, and, and, and hear me out on this one, you, you cannot compete against Andrew because he wants you to win too. And I'm, and I say that from the bottom of my heart. He wants everybody on that squad or people he knows or he has met one time. Shoot, well, keep your head up, keep grinding. You're his competition. Right. But he still wants you to shoot your best because two things happen. You wanna
Get, you wanna be, he someone aren their best.
He wants you to be at your best and he wants you to do well. And that's, that's just a testament to kind of person he is. And the shooter that you can be. I think a lot of people, you know, get hemmed up in numbers and stuff. Andrew just shoots and he's consistent at being consistent. You know, he just let the,
Let the score card be what it
Is. That's right. That's a great thing. You know. Um, and, and the last thing is, you know, for me, you know, 15 stations in this tournament, two stations cost me half of my messes. Andrew's not Same with
Me. Andrew's not Saturday.
I mean, it'll happen to someone like Andrew. It happened once, but he didn't make any little tiny mistakes happens to me. I have to dig hard and recover, but I usually finish strong whenever I shoot even, you know, sure. I shoot together.
And when you, when you shoot in a, it's only as much pressure as you want it to be. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because you're, we all paid the same amount of money that you'll shoot. So am I gonna take it more serious for my a hundred dollars or is this a hundred dollars just a good day out in the mountains playing around? It's both. Um, but we shot Saturday, me, Michael, Travis, another employee here, uh, and two guys we shoot with pretty regular. And all five of us kills. All five of us could've won that shoot and none of the five of us did. But every time somebody slipped, you say, come on man, what's wrong with you? Get it together and just turn the next ones into Cheeto dust. You know, just hammer 'em. Yeah. And then go a couple, three, four stations in a row.
In the back of my mind, I'm like, man, I'm wish Michael would slip up a little <laugh>, but I don't want him to. But Right. I, I mean, I gotta pull a hit at some point. You know, <laugh>, I'm not gonna beat him if he doesn't slow down. Um, but if he's driving his best, I can just ride his coattails and, and ride with him. So having a good squad to shoot with, which I was blessed to have both days. It, it seals the deal for everybody. So we could have all shot a 62, but five good shooters had a good time shot with my dad, which I really enjoyed. That's cool. Yeah. Elevates his game when he shoots around good shooters. And I stare at his target guitar and I stare at mine cause I'm pulling for him to do his best. So, yeah.
Cool. Yep. And so that was a good weekend. And so the weather was, wasn't it, last year was a washout last year, wasn't it? Last year was decent, I believe. Hot it's been maybe the year before. They had a ton of rain one year. Yeah. Um, maybe it was, I've shot up here in a torrential down port before. Yeah. They had a team shoot a couple years ago. It was just 200 targets all day long. Soaking wet from a minute you got outta the truck. But you're shooting, you're shooting down. I mean, it's an interesting course because you're in the mountains and you're shooting in literally on the mountain mm-hmm. <affirmative> down the mountain. Yeah. Into valleys and things like that. Right. So out of 200 targets, Saturday's a hundred and Sunday's a hundred, I'm gonna say a minimum of 150, were below your feet and probably a hundred of them below your feet.
30 degrees or more. Okay. I mean, you are leaning and it's a cage the size of this table. Six or eight foot cage shoot out of, and probably every station I'm leaning against the cage, back, foot off the ground. I'm, I'm really hoping the screw is hold that track board. <laugh>. Well I'm leaning over because you look downhill like your last station we shot. It was beautifully set. Chorus and it, the whole chorus hats off everybody. But the last station was a chandel target, which is thrown on edge. Doesn't normally roll or curl. Just gives you a big dome to shoot at. Right. Was in the bottom 60 plus feet below your feet and the machine's probably 60 yards away. Damn. And it throws, it's slightly incoming and it's hard to tell with the terrain, but it's rolling in and giving you big face to shoot at 40, 45 ish yards at least. And you're looking over this ravine and if you stop and really like took a freeze frame picture, you're shooting at eye level, the bird's been throwing 120 feet as eye level. Wow. <laugh>.
And then underneath that and it was, you know, big spring, big A and target beautifully set. And then they had one below it. It was a 25 yard money maker target at any fun. Shoot, any regional shoot is a good target. But that's below your feet 20 feet and it's 25 yards out and it's curling away. So you really think this other one is the hard one. This one's pointing, shoot this bird below your feet. Now you gotta chase it's under your barrel and you're running downhill. And the bird's running downhill. They threw about a 40, 35, 40 yard quarter and uphill rabbit, which you just don't get anywhere. Cause you don't have the terrain to touse like that. Yeah. It's a target setter's dream come true. It's all these giant cliffs. If it's not uphill, it's downhill. That's, it's a really cool place to shoot. It's very unique.
Yeah. It changes your perspective on a lot of things. If you shoot trap skeet or at clubs that are flat, your, your vision and your depth perception stays pretty much the same. But when you start throwing things, like Andrew said, we could drop a house down on the bottom and walk out on top of the roof or have some room before you hit the roof. Yeah. That changes your whole perspective. Yeah. And because it's a private club, you don't get to practice there to get that perspective unless you get an invite once in a while. So to, to be there. That's on top of the great targets they throw. Yeah.
It's awesome. They, they're two complimented each other and they didn't abuse the terrain, but they, they used the targets to the maximum advantage. Everything was, it was perfect. Yeah. It was cool. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Was you And I was glad to have a good weekend. Thank you
For bringing that up. Yeah man. Congratulations. Yeah, thanks. Um, alright, well let's get into, uh, our first, uh, go straight
To the bottom and we'll talk about that to the bottom. Cause that was relevant this weekend.
Seven. Okay. So that's a good one. So you brought up the fact that, all right, we, when you talk about target loads, there are uh, shot size and seven and a halfs seven
And a halfs, eights and nines
And eights and nines. Yep. Um, and traditionally a lot of shooters that are skeet shooters may tend to like nines. Yeah.
Or eights or favor the nines or eights.
Whereas sporting play shooters will favor seven and a halfs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or some will just favor eights. Yep. Um, so let's just say seven and a half shot size versus eight shot size. Yeah.
We can rule out the nines as a sporting shooter, I'm a little biased. Nines are, to me, they're good for 30 yards and end big giant targets and you hit 'em, you know, about 700 pellets. It just makes, leaves a smoke cloud, they're awesome. But you run outta energy real quick. Yeah. A lot of shot, a lot of bees. Not a lot of honey. You know, it's a big, big picture. I like that. That's a, that's a Michael ism <laugh>. Um, when you go to eights verse seven and half, there's 1000th different one of 'em like mm-hmm <affirmative> 0.002 and 0.001 or Yes. Something like that. Yep,
Yep. I agree.
And so actual shot size is not a huge difference here. Almost
None. Yeah. But when you compact them into one ounce or an ounce of an eighth ounce. An eighth, same shell, two different shot sizes. You're picking up 40 to 60 pellets when you go to
Eights. When you go to eights.
And the way I perceive the targets an edge target 30 yards, just a standard dove shot on edge, it's going to take probably five or more. Seven and a halfs to break it. Maybe four. You hit it just right, you hit it with 12, it'll just blow it up. And you're using the energy of the target to break the target as well. So is the harder it's thrown, the softer you can hit it and still break it. When you throw a bunch of eights at it, you have more pellets, but you're losing little energy. You throw the seven and halfs at it, you got more energy. What better chance it can slip through your pattern. So it all really revolves off of the choke tube, the density, the speed of the shot, what you can handle for recoil. So if you're a one ounce shooter, you don't like recoil, it would probably behoove you to shoot eights cuz you're pushing about what I'm pushing with an ounce of eighth, seven and a half. But that's the debate as old as time one is not better than the other.
Well for sporting clays, the traditional load, is it a three jam ounce and eighth? Seven and a half? Is that about 1200? About 1200 feet a
Second. Yep. So traditional standard load.
Yep. Yep. And the reason they say that is that in sporting clays, you get such a variety of targets at different distances and speeds. You're just kind of patting the stats that when that pellet gets there, there's enough energy carried by that bigger seven and a half pellet to break that target. But like Andrew said, your choke, uh, the pattern, the density of it, it matters. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> because the further away, as soon as it leaves the barrel, mother nature wants it on the ground. And it's trying to, to pull that and open that up so you can, targets can slip through a pattern and then you start playing that mental game. Do I have enough pellets? Do I, do I have enough choke? Normally it's just the wrong execution of the shot. And that
Chip is probably worse than a miss.
Right. Because then you try to correct it. Correct.
A big pattern, an improved cylinder with that 30 yard crosser and eights and you chip it, that chip the front. Should I chip the back? Should I change something? Should I try to chip three in a row? Should I, it's too late to change my choke. It's not too late to change Michelle. What should I panic? Right. And next thing you know, you just forgot how to shoot at and you just miss it. So if you believe in your equipment, if you're an eight shooter, one ounce, eight all the time, Remington handicapped, one ounce, 1290 eights. That's what I'm gonna shoot all the time. I love it. Gotta have it. If you're the other way, I want the biggest and the baddest. I'm gonna shoot ounce at eighth, seven and a half. Winchester aa, super sports cannot prime me from 'em. Whatever works for you, you gotta believe in your equipment. Yeah.
And that's a, that's a big mental thing too. If you are just dirt balling targets, you get more relaxed because everything you're doing is correct. Yep. Yeah. Because you see a visual cue of I was all over that thing. I put all the bees on the hunting down there. Yeah. Whereas if you, if you chip it, you start thinking, yeah, was it too far in front? Was it too far behind? Yeah. Did I not move quick enough and I'm a neanderthal, I'd rather dirtball a target or flat out miss it so I can make a correction if I chip it. I cannot control you where
Enough, you don't know where
To move to try to just say, just keep doing it. Cuz the Xes all look the same on scorecard. Whether it's a dirt ball or a chip.
Yeah. I've had it explained to me on live birds, live birds, I prefer the size. But you, you could have a whole nother dissertation with Brad on shot size versus density and penetration. Sure. Or lifetime versus day or Yeah. Or shooting out the window or shooting outta the passenger side or driver's side. Yeah. All kinds of stuff. Um, but I heard it told to me, eachs kill more birds. Seven and a half, one more shoots. And it sounds kind of contradictory, but what do you want to do? Do you want to really, really, really kill that dove or do you wanna win this shoot? Right. Or do you want to shoot your limit in 15 shells or do you want to shoot your limit? I have, I've heard that explained to me in sporting clay's, annuals I have a hundred percent confidence in eights at any distance with jokes and gun. I'm shooting money on the line. Seven half. It's, it's not gonna play a mental, it's not gonna have a mental effect on you though. I'm not gonna let it because I'm gonna shoot seven and a halfs. Right. <laugh>
<laugh> money on the line. I shoot at ounce at 8 12 57 and a half. Right. Money on the line. Okay, there you go. You know, I have shotted a whole lot of practice birds with a one ounce number, 8 75, 80 yards breaks with no problem. Yep. And the middle's always the middle. So if you're chipping targets or you're second guessing your shell, you're probably not hitting 'em in the middle anyways. Right. If you're hitting 'em in the middle, you'll leave a big cloud of dust, you'll know it and it is all irrelevant. Yep. You'll absolutely know it.
So should we, should we go right into speed versus payload? I love
There hand in hand.
Absolutely. Okay, so speed. And this is, uh, still on the shot shell, whether it's a game load, a steel shot load, non-toxic, whatever it is. Yeah. Lead
It could be buckshot. We could be talking about buckshot. Um, you know, is, is it, uh, you know, we're, we're talking about a three and a half inch double o or are we talking about a three inch double OT or two and three quarter. Two and three quarter whatever. Yep. You know, you have, you have high velocity loads and then you have heavy higher density
Loads. Correct. Yeah. Most time you'll see 'em is either you don't see much advertised to standard velocity. They'll either be high density or high velocity. Right. So if you were to look at a dove load ounce in an eighth would be your standard game load. And then a heavy field load would be probably ounce in a quarter. Right. Ounce in a quarter.
Or you may have three and a quarter drs of powder. Three quarters with ounce quarter shot.
Yeah. Going up in recoil, which, and going up in recoil is all, uh, perception. So that's a whole nother, you know, hour long conversation. Six foot, 190 pounds. I feel different recoil than Michael at 6 290 pounds. Right. And a hundred bucks it's 6 190 pounds. We're all feeling two different things. Right. Um, little, little scrawny kid probably gonna get pounded with shells. I'm shooting heavy duty down the hallway. He could probably shoot ounce a quarter all day long. You just never know. Right. Um, I like, I like the payload because I'm actually, I like the fact that I'm sacrificing speed for pattern, which is almost always the case when you give up. Same with rifle bullets. When you go from 1 50 30 out, six to 180, 30 out, six typically rifle, slower rifle bullets shoot better until you find a sweet spot when you get into hand loads.
But factory ammo, for the most part, if you want your $500 30 out six to shoot, grab a box of 180 s out the door, you go, you'll be just fine. Right. If you get into twist rates and choke tubes and all kinds of other stuff. But I would rather have the consistent pattern and trust my shooting than to have the blitz kreg 1700 foot per second hypersonic remingtons. Yeah. And just b blister through my pattern and two pellets will kill 'em cuz they're real fast. But I don't know if I trust those two pelles. I know they are
Sure you, you're possibly breaking your damn gun to me. Shoot
Two barrel loads. It's off your gun in one week. It's been done. I know a guy who did.
Right. It it's interesting that, uh, for the green top customers listening in and they ask, well why is this this speed and this one not. When lead hits something it flattens out and transfers energy. That's how it kills
And turns into cutting edges.
Steel never changes its shape so it hits something. It has to be going faster to deliver that same sort of ooph that lead wood. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> also, people come in here and say, I've inherited this browning from the 1960s and it will not cycle these federal field target loads. There's a reason for that. There's not enough for those old giant springs and stuff springs Yep. To move. So you shoot those higher velocity loads, are they gonna kill any better? That's you gotta put a good shot on it. Yeah. A good shot does not. Again,
The middle's the middle. Yeah.
Right. Yep. And so it, and it's, and it's interesting, uh, how all that works. I mean you can, I tell people every day at work that come in and ask about chokes and speed and I said, if you take a garden hose Yep. Everybody's done it, you have water going through the garden hose and you take your thumb and you press down on the end of it, what does the water do? It goes faster and it blows out to the right and the left. The same thing happens with too tight of a choke and steel. Cuz you cannot compress steel. Right. Or too tight of a choke and lead, which just becomes a big chunk. Right. And it'll, it'll scatter that nice, that nice uniform pattern that Andrew wants may not work if he goes too far to the right or left of a choke tube Yeah. Versus a size shot that you put in it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I'm with the same discipline. I like to have a choke that I know the bread and butter targets or even birds that I was shoot in the field. If I shoot 'em within my ability, uh, I'm good. I've got the confidence and the equipment to do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Trying to find something faster. Trying to find something tighter may not always work. And when it works, the one time you believe you're the greatest shot in the duck. Yeah. You're
The man. Yeah. Right.
But then once you missed the next 15 ducks that come in, I need a new bead. I need a new shotgun, which we sell at green tops. Right. Not
And all these things. Right.
You know, and I that speed and payload, if you're talking in terms of buckshot, dead is dead. The middle's to middle, you can't, you can't kill a deer, any debtor with three and a half, then you can with two and three quarter. Right. And if you got your nine, two and three quarter pellets all in the center, all in a composition book at 35 yards, I would much rather have that than a scattered 18 pellet where it's, you know, it's covering this table, it's covering a three foot pattern. I'm gonna trust the nine because I trust the middle. But on the contrary, in Michael's scenario, if you're a dog driver or you're maybe not the best shooter, you know, maybe you wanna play with a little bigger pattern. Yeah. And you want to and, and nobody does it. Anybody can, nobody goes deer hunting with five choke tubes in her pocket.
Right. Well I'm standing out in the field, I need my, I need my extra long range Charlie choke. Yeah. And I'm in the woods. I'm gonna screw it and prove selling up. No, you, you try to split your middle favor in your preference. Do I want it to hit, hit or miss or do I want to hit with a higher percentage? So if you trust your shooting, you can probably get away with a tighter pattern, which is still relative with your speed and payload. If you don't really trust every scenario or trust every shot, it would probably behoove you to have a higher payload and maybe sacrifice a little one speed. Yeah. But it's whatever works for your gun choke hunting scenario. Shooting scenario, rifle scenario. And as a classic saying, nothing kills like speed. Right. Nothing kills like speed. If you can blow it through 'em, hit 'em hard. That's right. Yeah. But if it ain't the right spot, it ain't the right spot.
And, and you do split the difference when you shoot sporting clays because you have a lot of shots of distances. You shoot skeet and trap a trap shooter at 27 yards. It's a full choke all day long. Full
Joke shooter is
A skeet choke all day long
Day skeet joke.
And I are gonna split the difference and say it can't be overly tight, but it can't be too loose for it to slip through a pattern. Correct. So we shoot somewhere in the middle and you can take that same advice into the field. Shooting an 80 yard gad wall is probably not gonna work for most people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> a lot of people. But that gad wall comes into the decoys at 15 yards and your pattern's the size of a softball and goes right by it. Correct. Well now what have I done? Right.
You know, and you don't kill him until your third shot when he's at 45 where your pattern is optimized. Exactly. Which is which optimized with your speed and payload. Yep. You know, diversity, I, I tend to favor payload. I know it's not a this or that type podcast, but I, I would prefer the payload cuz I have faith in my shooting. Yeah. And I have faith in and I pattern my guns and I know what to expect when I shoot at a 55 yard deer run across the field. I imagine my 40 yard pattern, what's probably gonna be 15, 20% bigger. But I know I'm throwing 25 inches at 'em. I can, I can hit if I can get 'em inside of there, same with a clay target I'm imagining about a trashcan lid, 30 inch circle. This is what I'm working with. Can I do it? Can I not do it right. If not, I'll need to change my choke to make that trashcan lid at the distance. I'm shooting 25 yard shot. I need to open my choke to get the trashcan lid faster. 70 yard shot. I need to close my choke to elongate my trash can lid.
I guess we're gonna keep moving up from the bottom. I like
It. I love
You can go right into the,
You right into SAB slug versus rifle slug.
We'll get bigger and bigger
And then we'll get into the barrel. Yeah. Well actually this is gonna be a combination of the two. Yeah.
They'll overlap each
Other. So you know, when it comes to a sabba slug or sebo, however you wanna call it, we could actually says, is it sabba sebo sa sabat, whatever. That's my interpretation. <laugh>, that's how you say it. <laugh>. So sa sabba slug versus rifled slug. Um, and then this kind of correlates with smooth barrel versus rifle barrel or a smooth slug barrel versus a rifled slug barrel. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, just to go ahead and get this out of the way, the sabage slug
Clear, it's clear the
Air, the sabage slug is made for the rifle barrel. Correct. And the rifled slug is made for the smooth barrel. Yep. Now, now that kind of contradicts yourself
Too. You always, you buy the opposite of your barrel,
People will automatically think a rifled slug is made for a barrel. Correct. However, it is not, and
Some packaging says for sabba slugs. For rifled barrels. Correct. It's very
Confusing. Yeah, it is. It is
Very confusing. Yeah. But you wanna buy the opposite of your barrel.
You do. Yep. So let's just start with the sabba slug. Sabba slug is made for the rifle barrels. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's traditionally your slug guns that are made like your savage two 20.
Yeah. H basically,
Basically it's kinda like the only slug
Gun that's about what's out there. Now a bunch of H andrs out there, Winchester Brown tried Brownie makes Semio, they had a bolt at one time. But you want to, so now you're shooting a rifle, basically. Yes. You can imagine you loading your 36 the same way you load your, uh, Savage two 20, you shove a blank bullet into a preg grooved barrel. Yep. And then on the contrary, and that's going to add distance. Yeah. You aren't necessarily speed. I'm sabba or rifle slugs are normal. You're getting more accuracy and more distance mm-hmm. <affirmative> with a Sabbath slug in a angle system. Yep. You'll have a chance to group because your barrel's doing all the work for you. Correct. Over 20 to 24, 22 inches. Yep. You're getting 22 inches worth of grooves in stability. And when you flip the script and go with a, a traditional rifle, SL gun would be like an NCA 37.
Yeah. Or a eight 70 Remington arm sites improve cylinder barrel or an 1111 87 with a 20 inch rifle sight gun. Those are, they punish a deer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> punish a deer because most of 'em are just blank lead bullets or cast bullets. They crush a deer. You're very limited to distance, but most of the time you can shoot 'em with iron sites, open sites, you can get away with a scope. You're gonna lose your grouping and your pattern consistency and you'll hammer every deer you shoot 75 and n hundreds, probably a stretch hundred is a stretch on a smooth bore shotgun or or slug gun shooting a rifled slug. 75 is about your max 50 is your standard sign in at 50. You can and hold high at 75 you can hammer down at 50. Yeah. And it hits a deer really, really, really hard. Yes. Yes ma'am. Um, probably harder than the ri uh, sabage slug. Oh yeah. Hmm. And of course your max distance on your sabba slug, particularly the 20 gauges, which is the most popular right now mm-hmm. Is probably 200 yards and 200 is a pretty comfortable distance. 200 is a comfortable distance. Um, I hear tales of two 50 and 300. I I've heard that, but they're tails. I don't know if I tried.
Most, most people don't are not a very good judge at distance.
Correct. I don't know if I've ever, I don't think I've ever stuck fork in a deer that somebody shot at 300 yards with their slug gun. Yeah. But I have heard the tales. Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>.
Yeah. I mean a slug stories a slug at the end of the day has the aerodynamics of a brick. So all they're trying, all they're trying to do
Em up a little is to get that go. So if you buy a, uh, a sabba slug, you can put it in any gun at the end of the day.
A sabage slug.
Yeah. Any gun. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. I mean if you, if you're confused, you come to green top, I need one, a sabage slug will work on whatever you have. Yep. Just understand the limitations of the barrel. The rifling in the barrel is gonna stabilize that brick Right. Where the smooth bo is not Then it take a rifled slug, you're hoping that when it comes out of the end of the barrel that the air catches it and twists it. Correct. And keeps it stable.
It has its own grooves. But you leave a little up to interpretation with the bore. Exactly. It keeps, the slug is smaller than the bores not a smoke fit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So a um, and a 20 gauge shotgun and a sl, I don't exactly know the Boris size, but assume it's 0.25 and your slogan's gonna be 0.26, it's gonna cut its own groove. Where with the sabba, I keep getting mixed up man. I don't have a hard time myself <laugh> with the rifle slug and the smooth barrel, you leave a little wobble, which is why you're gonna be inconsistent. It's gonna be very, very, very close. Yeah. And you're gonna have all that drive and force behind you and you just have this big honking piece of lead. 2000 feet per second, it's gonna crush what you're shooting at. But you don't have the 24 inch stability. Right. All you have is about half inch stability and whatever the bullet can provide you. Correct. That cuts its own grooves through the air. Correct.
Yep. Yeah. That rifle, you know, or that that that rifled barrel, that's that uh, savaged two 20, that's for the guy who has to move to a county who cannot shoot every rifle.
Yeah. That's an AP hill. And that is
Exactly George Hunter. That is exactly what that is. Yep. Yep. If you're running dogs or you're still hunting in the woods in Virginia, not a cutover, a sabba slug will just crush a deer. Yeah. I mean at distances that the average hunter and a little bit above average hunter would be comfortable shoots. It's
It, it exceeds most lever actions.
It's a hundred hundred
Yeah. It's an ideal platform to hunt on in, in the, in Virginia. Yeah.
Where you have a lot of cover most shots inside of a hundred A rifle SL is especially
Yeah. Especially if you, if you hunt in a jurisdiction that does not allow rifle hunting Yeah. It is an outstanding way to do it. Very similar and ballistically to what muzzle loaders do. Correct.
You don't have clue 'em every shot. Exactly. Very low maintenance.
Yeah. Very low maintenance And your,
Your rifled slugs, you see a lot of old timers carry those in their, uh, buckshot hunting jackets. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well if that, if big boy slips up at 80 yards and I got time to change my first shell never happens. Yeah. That they've been telling that story for 40 years. That's right. And they got the same box of shells in the pocket. 'em
Makes 'em feel better,
Makes 'em feel good. But that's what you could slip in. That's a lot of people are convinced that's why Browning a five Magnums have magazine cutoff switch is so you can put a slogan instead of a buckshot. Yeah. It's probably more realistic that you could put a Turkey load instead of a buckshot or a sure BB instead of a number four. But you can, that's why that feature's still relevant. You can sneak in a bigger shell for your first shot and and could potentially kill that deer at 80 yards.
Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I would say this too, anybody else, you know, that is listening in and comes to green top to shop, if you've got granddad's shotgun with a fixed choke, which we'll get into that here too. Yep. Fixed versus screw in. Um, you know, come see one of us about before you buy a slug because you wanna be very careful if you've got an extra full fixed barrelled browning a five and you try to put a thumb size piece of lead through the end of it. Yeah.
You don't want big
You don't want bao at end of
It gun to you to everything. That's a big problem. So it does,
You know, most, most all slug smooth boar slug B slug barrels are choked at the end at as an improved cylinder. Yep. Yeah. And that's typically the best choke to use. If you, let's just say you gotta screw in choke barrel and you want to shoot rifled slugs, you're gonna typically put a improved cylinder screw-in choke in there. Um, that's the more open, the more the better it is. Yeah. As far as tight as I go would be modified. Yep. Correct. I wouldn't go past the modified
Modified. It's real close to the size of the slope. Correct. And prove someone who leaves you a little wiggle room but condenses it right there at the end and sets you
Straight. Yeah. And, and usually what happens is, what we'll see in the store is someone has gotten that gun and they're in a county or have joined a club that is slug only and they want to use granddad's gun and it is an extra fool. Or it is something along those lines. That's where we need to sit down and have a discussion. Make sure
This is the, we
Equip need have and make sure you guys the right equipment. Cause we want everybody not only to enjoy themselves, but you have to be safe before you can enjoy anything. That's right.
You safe. Don't enjoy anything. And you got a seven year old heirloom that Right. You want to take hunting cuz you wanna memorize it, but you also don't wanna blow the end of it off <laugh> Right.
To include maybe your hand. Correct.
So, or an eyebrow. Yeah. Right. Yeah. <laugh>. Right. Yeah. Keep both your hands.
So obviously there's a, to to conclude that there isn't, there is an advantage the sabage slug and the, and the fully rifled barrel probably is more, it is, it's more advantageous to use that versus
A dedicated rifle
Slug or smooth or Yep.
Yeah. Yeah. You're, you can turn a slug gun into a rifle with the right combination. Right. With the other combination. You have a really hard-hitting ball of lead that's more consistent than buckshot but less consistent than the rifle slug. So it's all time and place.
A hundred percent. Yeah. <laugh>,
You gotta have it.
All right. What's next? Uh,
That'll run kind of right into the barrel length.
Let's just go Yeah. Barrel length. So, um,
Caption, dose size matter
That that <laugh> it doesn't, yeah. Length is length. The, the issue and you know, for the longest time can be, you know, my grandfather, my uncle, my dad, a lot of people always said the longer the barrel the better. Yep. Um, and it, but it depends on the application. In my opinion
They were your age and my age. That was true. Yes. Times have changed.
Times have changed times
Have times they are changed.
Which we're, we're gonna get into that too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So nowadays the way that the, the choke technology, the shell technology, all the, the WA technology, everything,
And powder, all of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in my opinion, if you were talking about hunting for a hunting application, I do not think barrel length matters. Not at all.
That is me.
It only, it only matters. Understand it only matters in one application you would not take a 32 inch gun into the woods because it, on a rabbit hunt it was be cumbersome. Right. Yeah. But to your point Correct.
Performance based. Absolutely
Correct. Yeah. 19 inches of barrel is where the energy almost cuts off completely for a shotgun shell full power burn like a rifle. Right. Where you get a little bit more. Um, but most people think, well I've got this 30 inch barrel that was handed down and they, and Andrew and I were talking about this, we were talking about earlier killed this goose at you know, 65 yards, 70 yards. So I gotta have a long barrel. It's not so much the energy, it is the ability to smooth out your swing. Cuz the further away something is the smoother you have to be a rabbit running up on your feet. A 26 inch barrel even though 24 inch barrel pow you're snap shooting that rabbit, you're not shooting it running full throttle 60 yards. Yeah. But a bird that's flying through the air that stays constant. It's not slowing down like and you're
Tracking flight path.
Yeah. And you track, you have to match gun speed and target speed and push out in front of it. And that bird's probably going a lot faster than you think it is. Just like when you look at a plane that's going 800 miles an hour and it looks like it's going five Right. Because of the distance. Yeah. So you
Have to smooth relative
Yeah. And keep it all relative. But yeah. That's why the
Long barrel makes sense in a hunting scenario. 28 is now long. Yeah. Or 28 uh, say 1970. Yeah. 28 was a ridiculously long skeete barrel. Right. Was unheard of. Who in the hell would shoot a 28 inch barrel? I wouldn't just go out there and buy an 1,126 inch barrel would be fine. Which is true. But you didn't have, things were cheaper then too. But all things, all things being relative. You had fixed choke fixed length. You bought a 26 inch gun cuz it was improved cylinder or skeet. You could not come across a 26 inch full. You did not deer hunt with 26 inch fulls. But the era of the backyard gunsmith came along the uh, there was a couple in this area who would sleeve sleeve chuck and uh, not chuck choke barrels. And you could really transform a 26 inch gun to a 26 inch deer gun or a 26 inch goose gun or whatever, whatever you wanted to make it.
The barrel length in 1970 directly affected your pattern and performance. So you had to, you wanted to shoot three inch number one buckshot. You had to have a 30 inch full barrel. That was your only option to have a consistent pattern. Yeah. You wanted to goose hunt and waterfowl hunt then it was led. Now at steel you wanted a 28 because for a lack of description it swings better. It's a touch and feel thing. 20 eight's the optimal hunting Merrill length. In my eyes it swings better 26 little fast. But if you needed that open choke for your rabbit hunt, you had to buy what was available. The Frankie 48 black magic 24 inch, 20 gauge, 26 inch, 12 gauge. Yeah. That was your, your rabbit hunter's dream gun. You bought 'em cuz they're light and the barrel length was barrel length and choke was correct.
Now things have kind of flipped and all your sporting guns are really long. Michael shoots a 34 inch gun. I shoot a 32 inch gun, two inch choke tubes gun hits me, you know, my highest rib. That's a tall gun. I can lean on it like it's a post. Yeah. And most of your hunting guns are getting smaller and smaller 24 inches by most people's description outta the perfect deer gun. It's handy in and outta the truck in and outta the woods. If I kill a deer and I sling it across my back, I can drag it through the woods. It's not much taller than I am. But when big boys run across the field at 75 yards, you have very little game to barrel perception. It's hard to, hard to draw a lead with a short runway
Site plane I guess
Is which when plane your site picture you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. When you elongate your site picture the relative distance between the end of the barrel and the deer is not only eight inches closer or four inches closer. It seems like it's 20 yards closer. Right. Doesn't make the deer the shot any closer. But it makes your comfort go through the
Roof. Which I think is the misconception. Yes. A lot of people have thought that a longer barrel is gonna just shoot better for me. They do not hit hard, but they don't realize that it is helping you shoot better as
Person. Just same with the goose description. And that long, you know, Joe nails coming across field 80 yards. I couldn't touch him. That's 20. It doesn't inch is no good. That's not the case.
It's not performance based. It's
It's it's perception based.
It's perception based. Absolutely. It's, it's gonna improve you as a shooter.
It can in a certain scenario.
In a certain scenario. Right.
And one, and one of the things that's interesting with folks that come into the store, um, is when you're explaining to them different guns and stuff and like Angie said, 28 inch, think about the Remington 1100 that everybody's probably owned at sometime or the browning a five, the receiver alone is pretty close to four inches. Mm-hmm <affirmative> put that in an over and under. Cut it in
Half. Cut it in half.
Yeah. If you take a 20 inch inch barrel and you put a four inch receiver on the end of it, that's 32 inches, 32
Picture. Which is, which is why when you say it to somebody, man, I've hunted all my life and I wanna shoot clays because I wanna be like you and Andrew and that's great <laugh>.
Um, you better start now cause we're pulling ahead. Yeah. <laugh>, we can,
We can tell them here's a gun, here's a gun with 32 inches. And the first thing they say is, have
I shown you my Commonwealth cup? <laugh>
The uh, lemme spit in that. Yeah. <laugh> the um, uh, they pick up that 32 inch gun and immediately they go, man that feels nice. Now they don't understand it because they look at it and this looks nothing like the 1100 or 1187 was passed down to them. But that feel and perception that we're talking about mm-hmm. <affirmative> that extra two inches out on the barrel is what was eaten up by that four inch receiver. Yep. Right. So when they feel it, that balance feels like, oh man, this is nice. This is right on the money. I can see you how this works. Yeah. So you kind of work within those parameters and someone's looking for something now someone is just gonna chase, you know, walk behind beagles and chase rabbits. They're over and under. 24 inch gun is probably ideal. Yeah. 26 inch, something like
That. Jump shots, 20 yards, no extreme angles. But
We go right back to what Andrew said at the beginning. You kind of split the difference because you don't know what side of that scenario you're gonna be on the extreme or the inside of that extreme. So if you shoot a 20 an inch gun, it's dynamic when it needs to be and smooth than it needs to be. And you go too far to the
Smoothness and it's four inches too long. Right. At the wrong times.
Exactly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> right First, I mean, you know, people come in to buy guns all the time and they're like, well why don't I get this and that. I say, well yeah, you could protect your home with a 28 or 30 inch gun, but you wouldn't take an 18 inch gun into a duck blind. And you all do the same thing but someone do it better.
Kinda you're gonna blow your buddy's eardrums out short barrel or you're gonna knock little Katie's senior picture off the wall, swing down the hallway with that 800. Yep. But like, just a free plug to benelli the guns we have coming. They're, it's gonna be called the Virginian. It's a, it's a, it's an awesome gun. Everybody should buy at least two. Yep. It's a 26 inch camouflage comes with performance chokes and a nice sling. It's a hundred percent ready to shoot package. 26 inch being uh, ideal Virginia length. Right. You may rabbit hunt some, you may dove hunt some, you may shoot some clays. You may deer hunt some. I wanna buy one gun to do it all. A gun like that will do it. That will do it all 26 inch semi-auto is ideal across the board when you shift into sporting, if you're coming from a hunting background, Michael hit nail on head.
Just add two inches to your sporting barrel cuz you're gonna change, something's gonna change in the receiver or you're gonna want your site pitcher to be elongated. You're a 28 inch hunter, 30 inch sporting barrel is probably long enough. Right. But you would really prefer this 32, which is only one inch longer than your 28 inch hunting gun. If you hold 'em side by side, people are like, oh, it's like a magic trick. When you show 'em a 28 inch benelli beside a 32 inch proi, they're like, I can't believe this one. It's only a half inch longer. Right. Well look at this giant three and a half inch receiver with a big giant bolt in it and this big long recall system and look at this flat 90 degree angle where the stock meets the bolt face. Right. On your prize. I mean it's, it's crazy difference and it's hard to explain until you see it.
Then it's just like a light bulb clicks. Yep. All this extra space that's not being wasted in the semi-auto because it's just adding to your site picture until you get to another great talking point is a step rib versus a flat rib. So if you had a 30 inch Beretta, a 400 Excel sporting 30 inch barrel, the one inch choke tube doesn't help you cuz the bead stops at the end of the barrel. Right. So 31 overall but 30 inch barrel. Now you're gonna add a minimum of six inches to your site picture cuz it's grooved into the receiver. So I have a 36 inch site picture with a 30 inch gun that's cost effective. This is a great ideal scenario for a beginner or an advanced shooter. And if you shift to, like, I shoot a Craig off post borderer 32 inch barrel short receiver.
So I'm closer to the barrel, but I have a stepped rib or a ramped rib where my rib is the first three inches is soaked up with the angle and then it slopes down towards the front of the gun. So I'm only swinging a 29 inch site picture even though I have a 32 inch barrel compared to the guy beside me with a 36 inch site picture. Right. And a 30 inch barrel. It's all in how you see it and what makes you comfortable. Do you like shooting with your head up? Do you like getting maximum sight plane? Do I wish my sight picture was longer? Do I wish my gun was shorter? It's all in uh, comfort. Right. It's comfort zone. A flat rib gun adds maximum sight picture step rib gun adds maximum death perception and peripheral vision. Which one's more important to you. Right. And there's no right answer.
Yeah. And we, you know, from the beginning of this with the, the choke technology these days, I mean it's, it's incredible what sort of choke tube you can purchase and put in your shotgun. Whether it's for
21 inch Turkey gun. Yep. And you can hunt anything you want to with it, you
Know. Yeah. Chokes are cheap and, and nothing's cheap, but choke tubes are cheap. If in relation to a $1,400 gun, well I'm gonna play with a couple choke tubes Yeah. And really optimize my performance. Yeah. Whether it be sporting clays or Turkey hunting or deer hunting or waterfowl. I'll play with a couple boxes of shells with one choke or I'll really wanna shoot this shell, I'll play with a couple chokes and I'm gonna make this 21 inch gun will hit. It will literally hit the target as hard as a 34 inch gun. It's all in how you can put the shot in the right spot. Yeah.
And when something comes into the store and we get this a lot, what am I getting in this $2,200 pinelli or this $1,800 Beretta versus this $800 Frankie or something like that. And always tell people, you know, if you get into the action part, um, you know, Beretta made its name and it's the oldest gun company in the world with that action till it went on to make gas operated guns. So the reliability's there, they wouldn't be who they are today if they didn't have that Beretta and Benelli on their higher end guns. They're telling you that across the board you can get consistent patterns no matter what shell, you pull off the shelf because of the way the barrel is made in relation to the choke, you can get that same performance and that's
Force and cone chamber length, boar size, absolutely optimized choke tubes, which is what adds to your price. Right. And
If you say, if you're the guy that says, I want to be efficient and I don't want to have to think about it, the $1,800, $2,200 gun is your gun
Does it all for you.
Don't, and don't look back. Right. If you're the guy that says I need to be frugal because I I, I do a few different types of hunting. I gotta put money into my bow. I gotta put money into my rifle. Yeah.
I wanna be cost effective.
Wanna be cost effective. Yep. Then you get the gun that's two-thirds to half the price of that and you play with those $40 chokes and then, and you will get elite.
Gives you more tinkering. Yep. Yep.
That you can find in those guns. They're just telling you across the board and they're testing at 30 yards different size shot. You'll be able to take out Yep. And do effectively with it. And that's, that's a great thing for people to hear when they're thinking, man, do I need this? Do I need that? The answer is here're a green top. We have everything you can think of for any price point that you want to have to accomplish the same goal.
Yeah. You want to grab and go gun that has done the research for you. Spend a little extra money if you want to tinker and you want to, you want, you got a $10,000 hunting budget and you wanna put some here or some there, some there. Get the gun that's most cost effective for you and put a little of your available time into the tinkering, into
The pattern. And you'll see that. And
Neither one's the right answer.
Absolutely. You'll see that in guys who race on the weekends, they spend all week in the garage tinkering on the engine, the tires, the weight here, this, that, or whatever. That's the guy that should buy a shotgun that he can play with the shells Correct.
And size because he likes to the tubes to reload. He likes to experiment.
Shoot. And that's the guy, the guy who usually, uh, it just likes to push a button and watch it happen.
Yeah. Gimme the Porsche.
Give me <laugh>. You know what I mean? Give me the that's Sure. That's the difference.
That's that's what he wants.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and everybody else is somewhere in that gray area between those two extremes. Yeah. And you explain it and that's how it works. Yeah.
You wanna jump right to the choke tubes?
I, let's go right
Into We're nailing
Say. Yeah. Cause we'll save the powder. We'll save the powder. We'll hit 'em with a home run. Yeah. Screw in chokes versus fixed chokes. Let's roll right into that. You want to go in modern times or do you want to roll back 50 years? Let's roll back. Let's start by rolling back 50 years. Go back 50 years. You rewind 10 minutes.
Let's go back any further. Well, no, let's just say what we ate with our hands. The
Year was 1840. Yes. <laugh>. <laugh>. And for the first a hundred years of the shotgun, you got what you got. Yeah. You bought over the counter to whether it be Sears, Roebuck, green, top, Winchester, Remington, Browning, you name it. American doubles English doubles. You got what you got. You bought a certain barrel length, certain fixed choke. And it was up to you to decide do I want an improved cylinder and improved modified. I'm, well this is gonna be my driven pheasant gun. Do I wanna shoot nickel plated fives out of Yeah. And you didn't have anywhere near that, the ammo slice. But I wanna shoot fives outta this barrel. Sevens outta that barrel. Do I want it reversed? Do I wanna shoot my full barrel first because this is a live game gun Or all driven shots? Do I want, um, do I wanna buy a Valette four 12 that comes with interchangeable barrels.
Right. Do I wanna buy this, um, lc Smith as a two barrel set, you know, speaking in 1920, do I wanna buy this at 1100 because I wanna shoot skeet today and I wanna deer hunting six months And Greentop has these barrels in stock and, and maybe it, maybe it was this, maybe it was cost effective then to buy an extra barrel for your Yeah. Absolut 1108 70. Absolutely. What, what was 1100? Because nowadays a choke, A good choke is what? A hundred dollars a performance? Chokes a hundred. Chokes a hundred. But if cost effective chokes 40. And if, and and 30 years ago, if you owned an eight 70 wingmaster and you had your 30 inch full, but you wanted 70 bucks to get your fresh barrel, but you wanted a 20 inch rifle site, smooth board mm-hmm. <affirmative> to shoot slugs in, that might cost you 80 bucks.
Yeah. You know, and you're back and you got, now you have two guns. Right. Cost, cost effectiveness, same. Yeah. You know, if not, maybe even better if you put it all to scale and you, you flip back and forth between times. Yeah. I think the fixed barrel in today's terms, well go back to 1970. That's all you had. So you bought what you bought and then as you accessorized your gun, that was about the only thing you can do. Yeah. Is buy another. I bought a, and we hear it all the time. I want a deer barrel. I want a bird barrel. Right. I want a clays barrel. And then I want a skeete barrel. I want a trap barrel. And if you talk about, you know, as far as shells go and, and shotguns, all you've really shot back then was lead. All you have was there was no non non-toxic guns.
When the plated, when plated shot came out, it just took everything by storm. Cuz now I'm, in theory I'm hitting harder cuz I'm having less deformation in my shot. But you're also zinging through more things. But it changed the way my gun pattern, it's gonna shoots copper plated fours awesome. But it shoots unpled ones as good, but not copper plated ones and not unpled force. So it's all in tinkering and experimenting. Right. But then you had fewer options. Shells are cheaper. You can buy two boxes, go out and shoot a beer box and this one shoots great, this one doesn't. Okay. No good. Yeah. I'm keeping my barrel ditching these shells. And in today's terms, I'll fix, you see very few fixed choke guns. Most of those custom order, most of 'em very expensive. Yeah. A fixed choke gun in a sporting world rules out all hesitation.
And that's normally the guy who shoots Winchester light handicaps 1291 ounce. This is my shell. I got two pallets at my house. This is my gun. I sent it to a guy in Ohio who customized my barrel. Everything's perfect. 22 thousands on the bottom, 29 thousands on the top. It cannot get any better. I can rule everything else out as long as I wake up, show up and perform. I'm good for the more cost effective person with any price going, more cost effective person, I'm gonna buy this Craig off. I'm gonna buy this Beretta, I'm gonna buy this browning. And they all got screw ins. Yeah. And I don't like factor chokes. I'll buy it $200. I get a whole nother set of screw ins. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I like these cuz they're shiny. I like these because they're light. I like these cuz they're heavy. I got these custom made. But to choke tubes, now you're playing with $70 where a set of peruzzi barrels might be $3,500. All right. Another two grand to get 'em worked. So that's all performance and dedication base. Sure. And you know, a lot of people, I've heard the argument, well the old, the newer screwing choke barrels, well they weren't quite machine. Right. I've got a wad stuck in it and it blew my barrel up. Or Well, most of it's operator error. Most,
Usually That is that happens. Yeah. Happens
Usually that is operator error. And like, you know, Andrew said, going through the times, if you think about it, an ammo company, a choke two company and a firearm manufacturer, besides the goal of selling you their product, they want you to do well. So they improve the power and they're all insights. They improve mm-hmm. <affirmative> the choke pattern, they improve the barrel and the forcing cone. And when you combine all that together, you have the ultimate surgical instrument for what you're doing. Whether that's a trap shooter, a dedicated goose shooter, or a deer hunter. But once you start getting into fixed chokes, you really are in a very small
Group, a very niche.
And that group is that gun's always gonna balance the same no matter what. If you take a heavy duty choke tube for, uh, waterfowl steel, it's gonna be a little heavier than a lighter choke tube that you may screw in to go shoot pheasants on a preserve somewhere. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or you're, and, and that's gonna change it. It's
Not enough to throw you off unless it's enough to throw you off. Unless you know enough.
90, 95 plus percent of the people who walk in the green top do you do something like that, are not gonna under not feel that perception.
They're not gonna pick up a pattern master and say, man, this thing's heavy. But
Someone who, someone who shoots clays first, second, and third and then gets invited on a hunt, will tell you when a gun's in his hand that it feels different. Little front heavy is
Rear heavy balance. Yep. And everything being consistent and fluid. The guy who hunts all the time and gets invited to shoot clays, just bring your hunting gun. Yep. All you need to do. Yep. And to ask the guy, what choke should I put in it? And the guy who shoots clays religiously is gonna tell you what choke for this course to use and don't think Yeah. Don't even, don't even don't change. You go out.
Just keep going. If you go out with your boys, just shoot whatever chokes in it. Exactly. You'll be fine. And it'll no insult to anybody. But the, the, the deep, deep, deep five percenter is gonna know the difference between this guy shooting a buck kicker at a 10 yard target and him shooting in improved cylinder. The guy with the buck kicker than is gun. He don't care. He don't know the different Right. Right. More power to him. Yeah. He should shoot for this rest of his life with no fear. It doesn't make a difference. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's the right approach. Yep. The other guy has done, has shot at a quarter million targets and got 50 grand invested in everything being perfect. If you're not that type of person, just buy a gum of screw ends and everything now comes with screw ends. Uh, fixed jokes for custom order. Now. I mean it's, that's they're think of the past and, and is one better than the other? I would say no, it's not. I think, I mean, go ahead. For the most part, no, I think a fixed choke gun is optimized to that bo diameter and choke diameter. Yes. I think they will perform better with one unique sp uh, situation. Right. But across the board and it for any sort of cost effective reason, the screw and choke blows it outta the water not even close. Sure.
Absolutely. And if you look at it like this, we talk about guns all the time being a tool. Right, right. A hunting gun, whether it be a rifle or a shotgun as a framing hammer, you can make mistakes with it. You can get the job done and you can do delicate work and you can just drive it home. A target gun is a trim carpenter's hammer where you have to get it right. Yeah. Because if you screw it up Yep. You gotta start over. Yeah. You can cover up bad work with a framing hammer. You can pull that nail out and redo it. Yeah. You're tapping with a, I mean that's, that's really the difference. You know, or you
Get another shot at the duck. Yes. You hunting by yourself. You miss when you first shot, I'll just shoot again. Right. You know, clean targets, two birds, two shells.
And it's not practical to break open a shotgun in a duck blind. But if you're a guy who stands in flooded timber or you're guy stands outside the blind or on the edge of a swamp, then the brownie over and unders are great for that. Yeah. You know, that are wrapped extremely reliable. And if you're a clay shooter and that's your niche, that's your, Hey, this makes sense to me. Breaking it opens a door hinge of two firing pens. Pretty simple, pretty easy. If I fall, I can clean it pretty quick and get back in the game. Yep. As opposed to an over an, an auto guy who rabbit hunts, deer hunts, all that. He's gonna be better off shooting clays with that.
With the gun he's already comfortable with. You're comfortable with. Yep. Yep. And comfort is, and everything we've talked about so far, the seven and a halfs versus eights, the barrel length, the SLS from his buckshot to the screwing choke fix chokes. If you're comfortable with it and it works for you, rock on. Rock it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> rock on.
All right. We got time. Do you wanna nail it home? We got time for one
More. Let's nail it home. This
Is a great one. Is this the pellets versus
Powder? This is, this is the layup
Powerd X pellets versus loose powder. And this is where we're talking, we're talking, well
Gears muzzle loading season. Um, to me this is a no-brainer cuz I've Well I've experienced both. I've, and I can tell you from my experience, loose powder is the way to go. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> it is, um, it's not as simple and as easy as pirated x pellets or white hots or triplet sevens or whatever. Um, but it's, it's more accurate, more consistent. Um, cleaner too. I would say that Sure.
Significantly less smoke. Significantly less Yes. Uh, residue in your barrel. Yes. Uh, it's same experience. If you are a muzzle loader hunter, you are shooting yourself in the foot by not shooting loose powder. Yeah. If you are, uh, with the exclusion of last year and moving on the Caroline County resident, we didn't have a rifle season until last year. And I muzz load hunt for nine weeks. You need to have a solid gun, solid scope, solid rings. You need to go out and shoot your gun. You need to tinker with it cuz this is your new rifle. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is your gun. This is now a 200 yard instrument if, or maybe 300 yards depending on what you're shooting and which gun you have. When you start getting into loose powder and weighing and reloading. Guys will spin into a vortex with this conversation. But when you're weighing out between the difference between how your gun shoots with 80 and 82 grains, you look at it in a vial, it looks exactly the
Same, it does <laugh>
And you shake it and you look at another one and you say, well they're both, I've weighed 'em both at 82 but this one's got, you know, this one's reading 85, this one's reading 81 doesn't matter. Go trust your scale when you shoot it and you see your group size just shrinking, shrink and shrink. It's insane. Yeah. When you are a non mus hunter who hunts in mus season, you buy a cost effective gun, maybe a ready to hunt package. Uh, I'm just doing this cuz that's what my boys do. Uh, we go out in the mountains for three days and he always kills the big deer during mu season. I want in on the action. That's a great time to kill a deer too. Sure. So you don't want to trust deer of a lifetime to over the counter gun. You may want to tinker something. You probably owe it to yourself to give the gun the respected you're
Putting in the time, putting in the work there. But if you're spend
The money after work three days in two weeks, you know, shove two pellets in there and you'll be fine.
Yeah. And well too comes consistency. Do you want, do you wanna shoot a group inside of a grapefruit or do you wanna shoot a you wanna shoot a golf inside of a golf ball? Yeah. And you think that's bullet
Together with a primitive muzzle loader. That's right.
With loose powder. And with loose powder you can do that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> with pellets. I think it's ve it's possible. Yes.
It's tricky. It's up to the gun at
That point. It's very tricky because you just get too many inconsistencies mm-hmm. <affirmative>
That are gonna prevent you from doing that. And I've never known anybody to put a triple seven block on a scale and see if it's 50 grand. Yeah. I've never done it. Yeah. I just shoved two of 'em, take a little pipe cleaner, shoved two of 'em in the barrel and I had a gun that shot 7 77 pellets. Great shot. One bullet, one powder. Never changed the scope a hundred yards and then dead as a door. But I didn't trust that gun past 115 yards. Right. I didn't, I I owe it to the deer to not shoot at 'em. When it comes to the tinkering and the, the muzz loaders have just taken an extreme leap in the last 10 years, five years, how, how accurate they are. They are now rifles. They're far from prairie. Oh yeah. And when you start weighing or going by volume on your powder, which in my eyes you should weigh your powder if you're gonna take it to that step, go all the way.
And when you start measuring your powder that uh, shoots good at 77, shoots good at 80, shoots real good at 84 shoots like crab at 86. 86 is too hot. Starts scaling it down. Now we're 82, 83. That's where I want to be. My last guy and I shot 82 and a half cuz that's where the scale just naturally kept falling. Shot 82 and a half, put 'em all inside of a golf ball. Three bullets touching. This is incredible. A $500 gun requires no paperwork to shoot 200 yards comfortably with a little bit of powder and a little bit of time. And when you start weighing your stuff, you have it all written down. You weigh 10, shoot five, you have five left over. It takes no time once you're comfortable. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>, would you argue too though that you should probably know what your gun does? Do you should shoot both with with it? Because you know, we're very, people are visual and they also are hands on and they want to know and given the climate today of finding powder Sure. And finding things. Absolutely. You may get to next year and something has happened like it's happened this year. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you can't find that loose powder. You should know what that pyrodex does in your gun at that distance and understand that circles right back to messing with chokes, messing with shot size.
Sure. Trust in your
Equipment and saying, Hey, I can't find my favorite loose powder at Green Top, but Green Top always has powder decks and I know what my gun does. Mm-hmm. And I buy this bullet. Mm-hmm. Ideal scenario, I get my loose powder. But just because of not having everything that we wish we could have all the time due to supply chains Sure. Around globally
Or you didn't
Start shopping, probably a good idea to do it
Itt start shopping until October 23rd.
All we got is white hops.
Absolutely. And now you're like, man, now I'm screwed. Correct. That 82 grains is my honey lo but I know that this will get the job done. It may not be the golf ball, but it'll be the baseball. Right. And I'm only shooting at 80 yards. I'll be fine this five acres and I get to hunt. Absolutely.
A lot of that comes down to your muzz loading dedication. And, and Hunter and I both have taken muzz loaders to the extreme. I want, I want the baddest stuff I can get because this is gonna be my time to kill the deer after, you know, in two more weeks when the uh, somebody's beagle bumps him along. I don't know if he's coming back. That's right. I need to catch him now. That's right. I'm seeing him on camera every other day, every third day. I get him all the time. The deer's right here. It's
Wind is right tomorrow. Yep. And I trust my 84 grains and this's going. Yep. When you sink them Triple seven s in there. I don't know, they look like you're a hundred grains. I don't know.
Maybe, maybe not.
It might be the same thing when you
Shov 'em down the boar, you fla the piece off. Maybe now you're at 97. Yeah. Do you trust that load or do you unload
It or reload it? I mean, do your pellets get crushed at the
Bottom and you're not supposed to touch 'em?
You're not supposed to touch 'em? I mean, I don't know. It's,
It's how hard are you loading a gun? Yeah. Because when that, when that bullet goes in after that powder, you have no more perception on what it is. Yeah. I imagine me pouring the powder in and it always goes in at a slant. Yeah. And it scares me to death. I said, nah, I'm not gonna get a clean burn. I'm not gonna get a good boom, but I shake you going a little bit and if Ricky Horn said whatever you do, just do it the same time. Do it all the same if you tap it on the ground and poke your nose, do that every
Time. Every time. <laugh> if you,
You know, if you, and I've always carried on the same subject. Uh, when I do my powder and I do my bullet, I keep two primers for every charge. Cuz normally I'm panicking and I just shot something and I'm shaking so bad, I'll flinging in primers right outta the tree. <laugh>. I'm two two to one primers to loads. Yeah. But I'm trusting my equipment and I'm putting that powder in there nice and neat. I remember I weighed this powder. It's 82 and a half grands. That's right. And I know I got a picture on my phone of how tight it shoots. I showed the guys at work. This is, this is it for me most of the time. A triple 77, 2 or three pellets. A lot of guys will say two a hundred grands, a hundred yards, 150 grands, 150 yards, three pellets to get you to that extra distance. But now you go all the way back to the beginning of our conversation. Are you giving it more speed than the payload requires? Right. Are you trusting it or are you just shoving another one in there and say, yeah, it'll be fine.
More speed, less con, less consistency. You
Hit him, which you hit him. Yeah. But are you gonna hit him in the neck or are you gonna hit him in his ankle? Right. Or are you gonna miss,
Are you gonna have a blood trail or no blood trail? Correct. Correct.
You know, I like shooting and watching. I don't like shooting and looking <laugh>. That's
Looking never any fun. Not a whole lot
Of fun. No. I
Don't trust it at all.
Well, that was a good way to end it. Yeah. Thanks. Uh, thanks for doing this today guys. We got, we missed a, we missed a ton of, there's a lot of other ones. You left a lot of, we left a lot of them on there. Which we'll just, Hey, we'll just have to get it on the next one. Why
You have to, um, congratulations to both y'all. Yes sir. Thank Good shooting this weekend. We had a
Good time. Travis Barrett shot a
Travis shot. Well too shot really
Well. Yep. Very solid both days. And we had to twist his arm last weekend to go to shoot and he's, ah, I don't know, maybe, maybe not. I said, well just go. Then he goes, I'm like, well, I guess he should shoot with us. Yeah. And then he just, he doned me around all week. I rode in his cart and I hung out with Travis, ate lunch with him both days. I'm really glad he went and I think he really enjoyed himself. That was,
That's good to see him. It was good to see him there. Cause Travis is good people from the naval out in every direction.
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It's, I always enjoy shooting with Travis.
All right. Well good. Hey, thanks for being here guys. Uh, thanks for listening to another episode. We'll, uh, we'll we'll get another one together here soon enough. Sure. And, uh, hit some of these other topics that we'll pick it up at Monofilament. Yeah, that's right. Mono
Versus braids. And if anybody please call or write in on how to spell mono monofil. Yes, please. And go ahead and spell braid for us too. We're not really sure on that one. <laugh>, I'm sure there's
A number of ways you could spell that. <laugh>. Yes. Thanks. Thanks guys.
Thank you. Thanks for listening to The Green Top Outdoors Podcast. Hunting, fishing, and all things outdoors. It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle like, and subscribe to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And learn more about greentop at greentophuntfish.com.