Building A Custom Rifle - Green Top Outdoors Podcast Episode 37

Zack Donovant, the owner of Old Dominion Custom Rifles, joins Hunter and Andrew to discuss the art of custom rifle building. From hunting, benchrest, or tactical applications, Zack can build just about anything. Zack is a very accomplished hunter and long-range shooter, not to mention a world record holder. So much information in this podcast! Warning, you might be building a custom rifle after listening!

Narrator (00:00:02):
Hunting, fishing, and all things outdoors. It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Welcome to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast and your host, Hunter Brooks.

Hunter (00:00:13):
All right, today on the podcast we have Zach Donovant as our special guest. Zach, thanks for being here today. Thanks

Zack Donovant (00:00:19):
For having me,

Hunter (00:00:20):
Guys. No problem. And as always, Andrew's here and, uh, you. Hello Mr. Brooks. We're gonna, uh, yeah, it is Morning. Yeah, we're usually doing a lot of afternoon podcasts, but it is morning, so Got plenty of coffee in me. I'm good to go.

Andrew (00:00:32):
You've been awake four hours. Yeah. Takes four hours to wake your body up. At least four

Hunter (00:00:35):
Now's time to go.

Andrew (00:00:36):
That's

Zack Donovant (00:00:36):
Right. Make a little jittery. Yeah.

Hunter (00:00:37):
Me, I'm well. I got, I just got out of a meeting.

Andrew (00:00:40):
You're just excited. Yeah. Yeah. Very pro-life pro

Hunter (00:00:42):
Today I am because, uh, I mean, well look who's sitting across the table from I

Andrew (00:00:45):
Know <laugh>. I've been a hard time holding these alligators down myself, <laugh>.

Hunter (00:00:51):
So if anybody is not aware, Zach Donovant is a custom rifle builder. And so you

Andrew (00:00:56):
Shoot a little bit too, don't you? Yes, sir. Okay. You do. You do You have a shotgun guy?

Zack Donovant (00:01:00):
Yeah. What is a shotgun? Exactly?

Andrew (00:01:02):
Yeah, it's like a rifle above a no bolt.

Zack Donovant (00:01:05):
Why would it not have a bolt? <laugh>? I

Andrew (00:01:06):
Don't remember, man. And then most of 'em aren't custom. It's kind of boring. Yeah. Shotgun world's boring.

Hunter (00:01:11):
But I guess what's significant is, uh, you own Old Dominion custom rifles. Is that correct? Yes, sir. And you're based outta where?

Zack Donovant (00:01:18):
In Maidens, Virginia

Hunter (00:01:19):
Maiden switches in Gland County. Yes, sir. This is about 35 minutes from here, roughly. Yes sir. Yeah. Um, and you, you do a fine job building rifles, from what I understand. Build a

Andrew (00:01:28):
Good looking rifle.

Zack Donovant (00:01:29):
Well, I appreciate that. You have a couple of 'em yourselves. I do.

Andrew (00:01:31):
Yeah. Neither one is blown up. Right? That's, I was so excited. That's good,

Hunter (00:01:36):
<laugh>. Yeah.

Andrew (00:01:37):
And mostly you never know what you're gonna get. That's right.

Hunter (00:01:39):
<laugh>. But what you're mostly building is center fire rifles and of course, uh, the newer craze, the smokeless muzzle loaders. Yes. Correct. Yes sir. And that's primarily it. And then allotted, what you build is either based for competition or hunting applications. What did I miss? Anything other than hunting or competition or,

Zack Donovant (00:01:59):
No, that's the most of it. I mean, I have a couple guys that like to have guns for plinking. Yeah. You know, go out and just shoot. Not, not shoot competition, just play by themselves. Shooting paper, shooting targets,

Andrew (00:02:10):
Whatever. Long range backyard guns. Yeah,

Zack Donovant (00:02:12):
Exactly.

Hunter (00:02:13):
Okay. Um, and

Andrew (00:02:14):
You, most of 'em are long range guns, which you would say sighting in at 200 plus. I mean, ready to go 4, 5, 6, 700,000 yards maybe.

Zack Donovant (00:02:23):
Yeah. Out to two miles. Okay.

Andrew (00:02:24):
Yeah. So you're comfortable building a two mile gun.

Zack Donovant (00:02:26):
Yeah, I built several two mile rifles, so, wow.

Hunter (00:02:28):
Well, what calibers were

Zack Donovant (00:02:29):
Those? 3 75 Cheyenne Tactical.

Hunter (00:02:32):
Okay.

Zack Donovant (00:02:33):
And, uh, 33 xc.

Hunter (00:02:35):
The SciTech is the sh, shorter term Fortech. SciTech, okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um,

Zack Donovant (00:02:41):
Yeah. Built quite a few of them.

Andrew (00:02:42):
That's, I think that'll be my next project.

Zack Donovant (00:02:44):
40 pound? Yes. 40 pound rifles.

Andrew (00:02:47):
Hundred one pound bullets. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:02:49):
Yeah. Well, they're shooting 400 grain, 395, 400 grain, 408 grain bullets. 133 grains of powder, 3000 feet per second.

Hunter (00:02:58):
Mm. Now

Andrew (00:02:59):
Those are cited in about 500.

Zack Donovant (00:03:01):
Yeah. I mean, a lot of times you've got, you know, 40 MOA or 60 MOA scopes. I mean, you could never even touch a hundred yards zero with it anyway.

Andrew (00:03:08):
Yeah. Wow. That's

Hunter (00:03:09):
Right. Which we we'll get into. I guess we can get into more of that once we get into the, towards the tail end of Yeah. How to build a rifle. Cuz that's kind of what you're gonna like school us on today is from kind of start to finish the whole process in building a custom rifle. Why you, why would you build a custom rifle? Why would you not build a custom rifle? Things like that. Sure. Depending on the application and all. But, um Right. Give us, uh, I guess tell us a little bit about your background first, Zack. Cuz I've known you for, I don't know,

Zack Donovant (00:03:36):
Five, six years

Hunter (00:03:37):
Easily. Yeah. Yeah. Um, kind of give us your background. What got you into this? Um, you know,

Andrew (00:03:44):
Where do you start?

Zack Donovant (00:03:45):
So a couple,

Andrew (00:03:46):
Where do you start? Not a customer?

Zack Donovant (00:03:48):
Yeah, so it's, um, kind of a two-part story. Uh, one I went to school to be a machinist. Okay. Originally. And, um, so, but how I got into building custom rifles is that I'm very competitive. I'm a highly competitive person. And my good buddy, you guys know I'm Tony Jennings. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, we started shooting together, getting prepared for hunts, and we're out there shooting and we're reloading and he shot a little bit smaller group than me. And then I had to figure out a way to shoot a smaller group than him. And, and then it got to the point where the factory rifles, we couldn't get 'em to shoot any smaller. Right.

Andrew (00:04:25):
You're out shooting the gun. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:04:26):
You're out shooting the gun, you're out shooting that factory rifle with, you know, whatever hand loads custom load you can develop. And so we decided now, this was probably 13, 15 years ago, whatever it was now to have a custom rifle built. And he had one built. And I had a guy build me one very reputable name. Um,

Andrew (00:04:47):
Local guy.

Zack Donovant (00:04:47):
Virginia Guy? No, mine was built in Wisconsin. Okay. My first one, uh, was built in a guy from Wisconsin, well known gunsmith, reputable name. And I got it back. And of course, being the machinist background, the first thing I did was start looking at all the machine work. Yeah. And was, um, disappointed at best with the machine work that was done. And, um, had to redo quite a few things. Actually had to send the barrel back one time. It wasn't throated properly, it was a 65,284.

Andrew (00:05:20):
Okay. You had to send it back for accuracy, not just cosmetic.

Zack Donovant (00:05:23):
No, it wasn't, it wasn't accuracy. It was, they throated it for a short action. 65 2 84. Okay. It was like 2.8 overall length with 140 green bullet. And basically they turned my 6 5 2 84 into a 65 creed more.

Hunter (00:05:37):
Okay.

Zack Donovant (00:05:38):
Okay. So I had to send it back to be throated properly. And it was just a few things that I was, um,

Andrew (00:05:43):
Less than happy with.

Zack Donovant (00:05:44):
Yeah. And I said, well, I could screw it up this bad <laugh>, so I have a lathe. And so, you know, one thing led to the next that I'm, I'm buying my first Brooks Barrel and, and reading books and videos and, and, uh,

Andrew (00:05:59):
And most of Gunsmithing is machinery. It is, it's almost a little intuition and a lot of machinery. So, so if you're a trained machinist, you, you have a lot of parallels with a gunsmith.

Zack Donovant (00:06:07):
It is machine shop 1 0 1. Okay. Gunsmithing is, I mean, as far as barrel work and, and turning it or even work in the mill for stock work or whatever it is. Okay. It's, it's basic as far as cutting a tenon thread in one chamber and reaming a barrel. Right. You know, that's pretty basic stuff. But where you, when you start getting into the advanced side of it, it's how you're setting the barrel up to indicate it. Okay. You know, it's, it's what you're doing for Headspace. It's what you're doing on these wildcat cartridges. Yep. You know, how you're, how you're setting that barrel up. Like you've guys seen the, you know, my muzzle breaks that I like so much where I blend them completely smooth and you can't see where the barrel looks like

Andrew (00:06:48):
It's part of the

Zack Donovant (00:06:48):
Barrel. Yeah. You can't see where the barrel ends and the muzzle break begins. Sure. Yeah. And, and that's all just from, from setup.

Andrew (00:06:54):
And that's not an overnight thing. You, you have to do a lot of 'em and have the knowledge to get to that point. It's hard to just set the machine and go, you gotta figure it out as you get. It's trial and error too. Yeah. A lot of trial and error.

Zack Donovant (00:07:05):
Yeah. So for me, it was funny my first one, that two 60 ley that I built that, that you guys have heard a lot about, and I, I love so much. I did it on it by, I guess almost by accident. And I didn't have a, a thread protector, so I made one and then I blended it back, um, because I didn't have enough sticking outta the lathe to use a neural in tool Right. To put a neural on it. So I said, well, I'll just blend it in. And it blended in so perfectly. I was like, Hey, I kind of like that. Yeah. So then that it just kind of stuck. Yeah, sure. So it was almost an accident, but it, but it just stuck there. So

Andrew (00:07:38):
Would you call yourself a perfectionist?

Zack Donovant (00:07:40):
Very much so. Okay.

Andrew (00:07:41):
Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:07:41):
Yeah. Very much so.

Andrew (00:07:42):
I wouldn't say this just cuz you're sitting here, but my rifle's perfect. Yeah. I mean the start to finish, the part that he can't control, he can't control. But the rest of the gun is 100% perfect except for the caliber, the caliber's perfect. <laugh>, the old man caliber is perfect. It's perfect, man. It's like a laser beam when it goes through a deer. It's awesome. But the gun is, you can tell it's not a thrown together gun. It's Oh yeah. Start to finish custom-built gun. It was easy, it was easy for me to build cuz I said, what's the best parts? He says this, this and this. And I said, well just do that. Yeah. Sounds, sounds great. <laugh>. Yeah. I didn't even want a muzzle break, but he put, he said, I'm not making it without a muscle break. I'm putting it on there and you won't be able to see it, so off you go. Hell yeah. Yeah. It was perfect. So,

Zack Donovant (00:08:24):
So that's kind of how it started for me. Okay. Was, was building that one. And then where I shoot a lot of competition, 600 yard, a thousand yard F class and bench rest. You know, I built my own rifle, started shooting and started winning right away. And, you know, it's like the old NASCAR adage went on Sunday, sell on Monday. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well that's kind of how it happened in, in the interest world and competition world too, was I was winning and winning regularly. And people started asking the question, Hey, who's building your rifle? Oh, it's you, will you do one for me? Yep. And then I did one for them. Cool. And then they started winning. And then it just kind of, is there a lot of snowballed,

Andrew (00:09:02):
A lot. I don't wanna throw anybody outta the bus. Is there a lot of backdoor buying at a big rifle shoot if you win and that somebody knows that rifle's for sale? Like can they jump on it just like at NASCAR analogy? Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:09:13):
So when, when I first started, I didn't, in competition, I never had a rifle that I shot the barrel out of because I had one that shot, it shot really well. And then part of trying to get my name out there, <laugh>

Andrew (00:09:26):
I'll getting gun out there, sell

Zack Donovant (00:09:27):
It. Yeah. Like, Hey, here's my gun. Check this thing out at Sure. You know,

Andrew (00:09:31):
Hit one today. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:09:32):
It won today it, it, you know, it shot this real small aggregate or shot a real small group or whatever it may be. And, and um, you know, and, and up until recently until a couple years ago, I never had a barrel that I didn't shoot out. Right. Because I was always selling them. Sure. And just to help get my name out there. Yeah. So

Andrew (00:09:49):
That's a good way to do business. Yeah. Win and move on. I like that. When on Sunday, sell on Monday. Yeah. That

Zack Donovant (00:09:55):
Was it. Yeah. And I said, no, you know, it's, there's nothing, nothing special about that one. And that was kind of what I was trying to prove is, is it's not that it was not that the one rifle that I had, I did anything special to it. It's the same thing I do on every rifle. So I'll get those same parts again, build that the same way, and I'm gonna go win again

Andrew (00:10:15):
And sell again and then sell win again, win

Zack Donovant (00:10:17):
Again and Yeah. Read and repeats. Yeah.

Hunter (00:10:19):
Yeah. So you as much shooting as you do, you've got some, I'm sure you've got some records, right? I mean Yes, sir. So how, how accomplished, I guess, have you been in, in the competition that you've done? I mean, I know you do a lot of the, uh, local stuff, but you've, you've done stuff nationwide as well? Yes, sir. Okay.

Zack Donovant (00:10:37):
So, um, several range records, um, and then a one world record. I've got a 600 yard world record that is 1.364 aggregate. So what they do is it was four targets in the match and over those four targets, it's five shot groups, not three shot. Like we typically shoot in our hunting guns.

Andrew (00:10:56):
Yeah. Not a sighting group.

Zack Donovant (00:10:58):
Yeah. Yeah. So five shot groups at 600 yards, you take all 20 of those shots at 600 yards and it measured 1.3 inches and so Wow. Yeah. Pretty small. That's

Hunter (00:11:09):
Very small. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:11:10):
And it was 600

Andrew (00:11:11):
Yards too. And that's a fifth moa. That's 600 yards. Pretty

Zack Donovant (00:11:14):
Small. Yeah.

Andrew (00:11:15):
That's pretty small <laugh>. And,

Hunter (00:11:16):
Uh, and what caliber did you do that

Zack Donovant (00:11:18):
With? It was a six B R x.

Hunter (00:11:19):
Okay. So and that's a true wildcat cartridge. It

Zack Donovant (00:11:23):
Is a true bobcat for people,

Hunter (00:11:24):
For people listening that don't know what a wildcat cartridge is. It's a, it's a very, it's something that is created by somebody

Andrew (00:11:32):
Like a Zack,

Hunter (00:11:33):
Like a Zack a

Andrew (00:11:34):
Tournament or someone else, or a bench

Hunter (00:11:35):
Shooter that actually catches steam and, and gets popular gains popularity. But it's not something you can buy off the shelf. You have

Andrew (00:11:41):
To handle it. Where did that caliber start? All the way back to parent case six. BR six

Zack Donovant (00:11:46):
BR is the parent case of the BR R x. Okay. So the BR r x retains the shoulder angle of the B, but you blow the center of the case forward, you're stretching it a hundred thousands. Yeah. So when you stretch that case a hundred thousands, you shorten the neck by a hundred thousands and there's a lot of variance of the six B and and in interest competition, that's gonna be the predominant cartridge Yeah. Is a six br parent case of some sort, whether it's

Andrew (00:12:15):
A 600 yards or six and a thousand. Okay.

Hunter (00:12:18):
Yeah. And, and it's like, so it's

Andrew (00:12:20):
A shorter SQUATTIER case, but just by a thousand,

Zack Donovant (00:12:23):
The brx Yeah. It's actually a longer case than the br It not the overall length, the overall length stays the same. Okay. It's the body where the body meets the shoulder is pushed forward a hundred thousand. Gotcha. And so the neck has to shrink because the, that 1.5 60 overall length of the six B R case doesn't change as far as from neck to, to, to, to primer. Yep. Gotcha. Okay.

Hunter (00:12:48):
Gotcha. Exactly. All right.

Zack Donovant (00:12:50):
So just one of those wildcat cartridges that I wanted to try. Never tried one before. Yeah. Um, you know, everybody's, most people have heard of the six Dasher. Six br Sure. The BR Acli

Andrew (00:13:02):
PPCs.

Zack Donovant (00:13:03):
Well PPCs is, is more of a short range, like a hundred to 300 yard. Um,

Hunter (00:13:08):
It means pretty pathetic cartridge <laugh>. Yeah,

Andrew (00:13:10):
I've heard that. I've heard that. But it's a similar concept. Yeah. I mean they're real small though.

Zack Donovant (00:13:15):
If, if you, if you didn't look real close at, at the difference between a PPC and a br, they're very similar. Okay. A PPC is a little bit, uh, the diameter's a little smaller. Been

Hunter (00:13:26):
Around a long time too. It has been

Andrew (00:13:28):
Around a long That's an old man Cower.

Zack Donovant (00:13:29):
Well, <laugh>

Andrew (00:13:31):
<laugh>,

Zack Donovant (00:13:32):
I shoot one of them too. There you go. Uh, you know, I've actually got a Ruger number one that I built in a six ppc. Oh yeah. And that's what I take out West Prairie Dog. Okay. Hunting is my little number one and a PPC because of the accuracy of it. Sure. Okay. But it looks very similar to A six B. It's the diameter's a little bit smaller and the case is a little bit shorter, but it, it derives from the two 20 Russian mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, case is what you get. That's how you make the six ppc. Yeah.

Hunter (00:13:58):
Well, so the new okay, the new six arc derives from that case too. Right?

Zack Donovant (00:14:02):
Yeah. And so the, it's they're making that into AR mainly Yeah. Platform. Yep. Um, to be able to feed and go through that AR and go that, that PPC kind of route. But, um, horny, is that right? Is that horny? Yep. Yep. Horny, um, was able to do that so you can get commercially available. Yeah. You know, so

Hunter (00:14:22):
Technically it's not really a wildcat, I guess it's a spinoff. It's a spinoff. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I mean it's, it's, it's catching on. It's a lot popular right now. But, um, but I guess my point with that is with, you got Wildcats and, and you have, you have certain calibers that are made for certain spec specific purposes. You

Andrew (00:14:42):
All specific applications.

Hunter (00:14:43):
Yeah. Like in a lot of your six mill stuff, cuz that six mill family is huge. Yes. It's a big family. A lot of it is specifically made for target shooting. Right. Competition, shooting, um, things

Andrew (00:14:54):
To die off into the hunting world. Yeah. Because it seems like it gets pushed outta the way in the hunting world. It goes to six five in the hunting world. Right.

Hunter (00:15:00):
But you don't just, you don't just, uh, build, you know, wildcat stuff. I mean, if somebody wanted to build, and maybe this is where we go with this, somebody says, man, I want to build a custom 65 PRC or a two 70. He

Andrew (00:15:14):
Was just talking to Steve 10 minutes ago about building a custom 3 0 8. Yeah. It's a run of the, it just built one for Bill, my

Hunter (00:15:19):
Man 3 0 8 <laugh>. It's a,

Andrew (00:15:20):
I mean it's a, it's, I hope he hears this. It's a boring caliber, but it is, does his job exactly what it's supposed to do. Absolutely. You put it in the right build, you know, you get the right setup. It'll, it'll all shoot any, it'll all shoot the shooter.

Hunter (00:15:32):
Absolutely. Yep.

Zack Donovant (00:15:33):
However, on that 3 0 8, there's a lot of things that you can do to make that, that case, you know, not just do that Sammy spec Yeah. 3 0 8 where you're changing the dimension of the neck changing freeboard links and freeboard diameter links and stuff like that. So you can make that 3 0 8 shoot better. Especially when you start getting,

Andrew (00:15:53):
Does that fall on you or does that fall on the hand loader? Or is it the two of y'all working

Zack Donovant (00:15:57):
Together? So it's both of us working together. Okay. So anytime somebody comes in and says, Hey, I wanna build a 3 0 8, you know, or whatever it may be, 28 No. Or seven A

Andrew (00:16:04):
Factory caliber. Yeah,

Zack Donovant (00:16:05):
Yeah. Whatever it may be. Whatever. It's five creedmore. Yeah.

Andrew (00:16:07):
What was that last one? S Stw. <laugh>. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:16:09):
So I've only had one person want an St. W and I wasn't even sure when I called to get a reamer that they were even gonna know what a seven s St W

Andrew (00:16:17):
Was. They had to find the oldest guy in the shop. Yeah. And say, you remember this caliber <laugh>,

Zack Donovant (00:16:21):
The old man in the corner

Andrew (00:16:23):
Gun shoots, man, hey, I'm, uh, breaking the rifle in shots one and two were close and three and four went in the same hole. And that was with junk break in ammo. Yeah. And then five and six went in the same hole and seven and eight went the same hole. That's good. It just, it does what it's supposed to do.

Zack Donovant (00:16:38):
Well, we get lucky every now and then. That's

Andrew (00:16:39):
Right. Yeah.

Hunter (00:16:40):
<laugh>. So I guess from start to finish, let's start a process. If, if okay. If, um, if I'm coming to you and I want to build it, let's say it's a custom 3 0 8. Right. Um, or if it's Steve that wants to do that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, wh take it from there. Like what do you do next? You, you ask the person. I'm obviously, what are they looking for? Because if this is custom, you have to be very specific on what you want.

Andrew (00:17:04):
And before we get too far, you, not you and I but Hunter, myself and you in Green Top, we pushed some business towards you. Yes. So we gotta don't cut us out of the deal. Remember start start by coming to Green Top and say, where do I start? Yeah. Well

Zack Donovant (00:17:18):
First you got a green top and there

Andrew (00:17:19):
You go. Get your action. And then, uh, you listen to this, then you go to green

Zack Donovant (00:17:22):
Top. Yeah. And then you have to get your bullets and your, your brass and your p and your primers. Cause I was a

Andrew (00:17:27):
Cool hat and some shirts. Yeah,

Zack Donovant (00:17:28):
Yeah, yeah. And when you need shoes and you need, uh, you know, nice ear muffs Correct. And shooting glasses and all those things. Total packets, sandbags. Yeah. The whole thing. But

Hunter (00:17:37):
You know, uh, the reason why we're doing this is this is a topic that I bet you a ton of people would like to understand more about the whole process.

Andrew (00:17:44):
They probably don't know how feasible it's,

Hunter (00:17:46):
They really, they really don't,

Andrew (00:17:47):
Seems custom seems to attract a lot of people, but probably runs a lot of people

Hunter (00:17:51):
Off. Well also too, it could run you off because custom always sounds expensive. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, which yes, it can be. Sure. Right. But it, it depends where your heart's at. I mean, or, or, or how far do you want to take your Yeah.

Andrew (00:18:02):
How custom do you want

Hunter (00:18:03):
Thick of shooting? You know what I mean?

Andrew (00:18:04):
Yeah. So, so if you want to, how far down

Zack Donovant (00:18:07):
The rabbit do you want to go?

Andrew (00:18:09):
That's right. So if you wanted, if I wanted a a, if I came to you and said, I want a custom rifle, right. Is it up to me to supply the action? Or, and the action to people who don't know is just like on a Remington, the cylindrical part where the scope goes and the bolt and the trigger group and trigger housing. That's the action. That's the action. Yeah. A non barrelled action. Right.

Hunter (00:18:29):
And which you can purchase one of those.

Andrew (00:18:31):
You can't. You can buy straight off the, just the action. Where can you get one?

Hunter (00:18:34):
You can get one at Greentown.

Andrew (00:18:35):
Okay, nice. But you can buy a gun and what I would describe as chopping it up Yeah. And just have the action. Or you can just buy a scratch. Just starts to start at zero action.

Hunter (00:18:47):
Well, you can use an old rifle that's in this safe or laying

Andrew (00:18:49):
Around action.

Hunter (00:18:50):
Laying around

Zack Donovant (00:18:51):
Actually. Yeah. Now actually that was what I was getting ready to say is I, every time I come in green top, which is pretty regular, and um, I go through the rifle racks and I look at what rifles you have, as you guys know, I build a lot of Remington 700 s and built off a lot of tikas. Yep. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, so I go through the racks and just see what you have. And there's, there's a couple out there now that have Hs precision stocks, timney triggers, jewel triggers. I mean, you have a very good base where you can buy that rifle, you know, seven, eight, $9,000, $1,200 and you have a trigger, a stock, a action. And now you just need That's a barrel. A barrel. Yeah. You know, in a bed and job and chamber job or whatever. But I mean, you could get

Andrew (00:19:33):
Into it, it can make it real cost effective.

Zack Donovant (00:19:34):
You can make it very cost effective if you have the things there that you Yeah.

Andrew (00:19:38):
If it's the right stock and the right trigger. Sure. Okay. But starting with just a blank action, they, the customer should go to you and say, I kind of want this or kind of want that. Well,

Zack Donovant (00:19:48):
So, because my first experience was not the greatest. Yep. And, and maybe I didn't know, even with being as smart as I thought I was, um, I didn't know and they didn't ask me the questions. Like on that 65,284, what bullets are you shooting? Um, I assume since I had a long action receiver that I bought that they were going to throw this, you know, caliber for the, the longer bullets, but it wasn't. So anyway, so I try to ask a lot of questions because I don't want people to have the same bad experience that I had. Right. Sure. And in our business, my business, just your business, green tops business, we can't afford to do one thing for one person. Right. You know, we need that repeat business. We need to have that relationships with our customers. So they'll keep coming back and they'll tell their friends and then their friends will come back.

(00:20:39):
Yeah. And all that good stuff because there's not enough profit on one gun or one pair of shoes or Right. You know, one set of tackle, whatever, you know, that is Sure. They're coming in. Sure. They have to come in multiple times. So I try to ask a lot of questions, uh, about a gun. What is it that you're trying to do with the rifle? Um, is it just gonna be a, a deer rifle? Are you gonna be plinking with the rifle? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, are you gonna be shooting competition with the rifle? Because now you're, you're talking about three totally different paths with a 3 0 8. Sure. Um, we shoot 3 0 8 in f class, uh, called ftr, uh, f tactical rifle in 600 a thousand yard. But you're now talking about a certain twist on the barrel. You have a 18 pound weight limit with your bipod, um, for the tactical rifle, uh, you want it throwed at a certain way. You want a certain neck diameter. There's a lot of stuff to that. If you want to just set up on, um, go to Cavalier and shoot, shoot

Hunter (00:21:40):
Steel at 600 yards, shoot

Zack Donovant (00:21:42):
Steel at 600 yards. Yeah. Uh, you probably want to do something in the middle. Go with a Remington environment, maybe a heavy environment contour, heavy palm of contour, something like that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But you want something with a heavier stock in the back so it's not front end heavy and a nice lighter trigger. And now if you're talking, do you want a pack rifle to go hunting with? Now you're talking about a different stock, a different barrel. Common

Andrew (00:22:05):
Could be a carbon proof barrel with a a 20 ounce stock. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:22:09):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So there's, you know, so that's the, that's the first questions I ask. Okay. What's your plan with the rifle?

Hunter (00:22:15):
And I guess another key part of it is budget. Yes. Cause some people may come into this with say, a $2,000 budget. Right. Or they don't understand, they really don't have any clue as to what they're, what they're looking to, where to start spend where to start. That's right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and

Andrew (00:22:28):
Sometimes that's 2000 ground up. Sometimes that's 2000 and you supply the action and trigger. Right. Because now you're at maybe a $2,600 gun. Right. But you already got a 500 hour head start, right? Yep. Yeah.

Hunter (00:22:40):
So at this point, you know, they supply the, the action they've picked out. Um, or maybe, maybe I'm, I've, I've given you the action. I decide I'm wanted to build a 3 0 8, it's for hunting application. Um, but I'm, you want

Andrew (00:22:54):
A, you need a length.

Zack Donovant (00:22:56):
Yeah. Well you're trying to get, if hunting application, now you're talking weight weight's a big factor for hunting. Sure, sure. You know, are you driving up in a side by side and getting in the blind and hunting over a bean field? Or are you packing, you know, is this a

Andrew (00:23:11):
Colorado rifle? Yeah, exactly.

Zack Donovant (00:23:13):
Okay. So, you know, you start asking those questions, how far are you gonna shoot? What's your, you know. Yeah. Realistically, and you have to be careful.

Andrew (00:23:19):
That's the big word,

Zack Donovant (00:23:20):
Realistically. Yeah. Yeah. Realistically, you have to be careful because, and, and I fell in that. We've all fell into that. How far are you? Well, I'm gonna shoot one a thousand yards. 1200 yards. Yeah. A lot goes into those shots. First

Andrew (00:23:28):
Deer comes out at 80, you pull a trigger. Oh

Zack Donovant (00:23:30):
Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. Yeah. Well my first, my first elk that I ever killed a six by six in the San Juan mountain range was 35 yards. There

Andrew (00:23:37):
You go. Crushed them.

Zack Donovant (00:23:38):
Yeah. With the 2 84 Winchester. You know. And how was Oh yeah. I mean, you know, we shot all summer and, and and played and you know, shot long range,

Andrew (00:23:48):
Spent very little time at a hundred yards. Oh

Zack Donovant (00:23:50):
Yeah. I didn't know at 35 yards. I had no idea what that rifle would. Yeah. I mean, you know, as far as

Andrew (00:23:55):
It would be close to the scope height. Oh yeah. You know, hopefully it's within two inches high <laugh>

Zack Donovant (00:23:59):
35 yards. I can promise you when you put a elk in a scope, all you can, you'll

Andrew (00:24:02):
Probably hit it. Yeah. And you're probably gonna hit somewhere close to the cross here. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But if you wanted like, um, or Yeah, use the hunter hypothetical barrel. I wanna buy or build a um, 3 0 8 hunting rifle. Yeah. Sub 500 yards. I'd like to shoot one 50 in heavier. Right. Bullets. Yeah. So I want to shoot hard hitting bullets cuz this might turn into a 300 yard elk gun. Right. It may stay a 400 yard deer, deer gun or uh, it's big enough and meat enough. I could shoot a black bear with it. Right. Yeah. So I want a heavy bullet, short heavy bullet, easy recoil. Um, 24 inch. Yeah. Let's say. So I'll maximize my speed without getting crazy long mm-hmm. <affirmative> 24 inch. And then the question I guess is carbon barrel or steel barrel or weight overall weight. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:24:51):
Overall weight. You know, um, the shorter the barrel, sometimes it's harder to justify the carbon fiber barrel. Especially if you're going with a number three contour, number four contour.

Andrew (00:25:00):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> three is what people would call a pencil barrel.

Zack Donovant (00:25:03):
No. A three is similar to like a Remington 700. Um, like a Magnum Remington 700 cuz it's got a longer breach and a heavier cylinder in. Okay.

Andrew (00:25:12):
So it's got a little bit of a taper to it.

Zack Donovant (00:25:14):
Yeah. And so it tapers down a number three typically is, it can be anywhere from 6 25 to six 70. It just depends on who. Okay. Who the barrel manufacturer.

Andrew (00:25:23):
Is that diameter at the,

Zack Donovant (00:25:24):
At the muzzle.

Andrew (00:25:25):
At the muzzle. At the muzzle,

Zack Donovant (00:25:26):
Yeah. 6 25 to six 70 typically for number three. Okay. A lot of your number fours are six 70, um, themselves. And so you're getting into that little bit heavier where you want it heavy up towards the chamber in mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um,

Andrew (00:25:42):
So, but nimble enough, you can still swing it. That's right. And it, it sits in bipods

Zack Donovant (00:25:46):
Advance, not front end heavy. Doesn't tip over don't in a standard, you know, if you get a eight, you know, HS precision stock, it fits right down in there nicely. You don't have to do a lot of,

Andrew (00:25:54):
I think mine's a four or a four and a half.

Zack Donovant (00:25:57):
I think your stw is a number five. A five, okay. Which finishes 700 at the muzzle. Okay.

Andrew (00:26:02):
And it's got a nice long taper mm-hmm. <affirmative> with it. Okay. And then in, so once you've picked out, we're gonna go 24 inch steel barrel. Yep. And the manufacturer, is that either up to the customer or up to you or up to whatever turnaround time is best? Yeah,

Zack Donovant (00:26:16):
So I'll ask the question, you know, do you have a preference? And most people don't. Some people do, you know, they on who makes the barrel. Yeah. They've followed K crier barrels or they want to do local and we want to use a Hawk Hill Barrel roll Hawk Hill. Yep. You know, or, or they've just read articles about Dan Lija, you know, over the years and some of the stuff that he's done. So maybe you want to use that, um, you know, tight barrel and

Andrew (00:26:39):
You've spoken before, you really don't have a preference. You'll go with whatever customer wants if it fits the description.

Zack Donovant (00:26:44):
Yeah. It to a certain extent. So we've done enough of 'em that you're

Hunter (00:26:47):
Not afraid to tell them your opinion.

Zack Donovant (00:26:49):
Yeah. My opinion. But if they say, well this is what I want, then okay, you know, that's,

Andrew (00:26:53):
I need a brook barrel. You just say, okay.

Zack Donovant (00:26:55):
Yeah, sure. And, but there are some calibers that I will absolutely say no and I'm not gonna say those names, but for various reasons, the some barrels and specific calibers do not shoot as well from that barrel manufacturer. And

Andrew (00:27:10):
That's personal experience. That's not hearsay.

Zack Donovant (00:27:12):
That is not hearsay. Okay. That is personal experience. That is knowing, you know, some of people knowing

Hunter (00:27:17):
What you're doing

Zack Donovant (00:27:18):
Well and knowing some of the people at the, you know, at those places and your

Andrew (00:27:21):
Name's on it.

Zack Donovant (00:27:22):
Yeah. Literally. Well, and, and so it's always the gunsmiths fault if the rifle doesn't shoot. Oh, sure. Duh. You know, it's never the

Andrew (00:27:30):
Barrel <laugh>

Hunter (00:27:31):
Duh.

Zack Donovant (00:27:31):
It's never the shooter's. Never the ammunition. Sure. Yeah. It's always, you know, it's always the gunsmiths fault.

Andrew (00:27:35):
The guy built it outta speck. Yeah. And if, if I the grumpy customer, I don't know how to build it. Right. So I definitely don't know if it's outta spec. Right. But I have to blame something that's outta my control. Exactly.

Zack Donovant (00:27:46):
Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. So, and I'm, you know, I don't wanna have to do work twice. Yeah. I don't want, uh, uh, any customer upset. So I wanna make sure they get the, you know, the best product, the best end result that they can get. Sure. Yep. And um, so if it's not perfect, it's not going out the door.

Andrew (00:28:03):
Yeah. And some of that's between you and them on which, which caliber and barrel combination is best. Exactly. And barrel length is best. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then, so let's go from the muzzle backwards. You go into floating, what do you, you like it, um, spiral. Like a why looks like a masonry bit.

Hunter (00:28:21):
So why, why,

Andrew (00:28:22):
Why deep heavy spirals? So why I your eyeballs looking at it. Well

Hunter (00:28:26):
Let's, alright, let's go back, let's take a step back. Floating barrels, the primary purpose of that is to cut some weight. Correct. And to, I mean, it doesn't, doesn't

Andrew (00:28:36):
Flair

Hunter (00:28:36):
Well, it does.

Andrew (00:28:37):
I think it, I look at it from the opposite, but I think originally like a sandero, you mill it out to lighten the front end. Right now it looks awesome and you can use Cool.

Zack Donovant (00:28:45):
So the guy talking about flair, if you guys don't know Andrew, he's got a cowboy mustache that's

Andrew (00:28:50):
<laugh> and a Mohawk Mohawk.

Zack Donovant (00:28:52):
He is all about

Andrew (00:28:53):
Flare. All about the flare. That's right. That's right. I think it adds a lot to the look. So if you're gonna shave weight, make it look the way you wanna look. If your con weight was a total concern, you'd probably go carbon barrel or you'd cut four inches off a barrel and start at 20 inch.

Hunter (00:29:06):
But there's no, there's no reason why you shouldn't get a fluted barrel either. I mean, it's, it's not, you know, it's not, doesn't make things more fragile or anything like that. I mean

Zack Donovant (00:29:17):
No. And so floating, there's a couple rules to floating barrels and it, and it gets into barrel length, uh, contour of the barrel. Uh, there's certain depths that they can cut. Yeah. And not cut button rifle barrels. Some button rifle manufacturers will tell you they do not want you to flute the barrel. Some button manufacturers say they, if they do it because of how they, their process mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that it's okay. Uh, because on a button barrel, they're drilling a hole, running a reamer through it, and then they have that button that is oversized. They undersize the hole and they run that button through it and it actually tresses the metal. And as they're pushing through, pushing the button or pulling the button and it's setting that rifle in place and whatever that twist rate is. And so people like Lilja, um, Carson Lilja, Dan Lilja, the way that they're, they, their process and how they contour their barrels, how they drill, how they do their, their rifling, they can flew to barrel and it be Okay. There's other ones that will absolutely tell you if you flew to barrel, you void their warranty. Yeah. Okay. Uh, button rifle manufacturers. Okay. Um, but hand single point cut hand lap barrels. Nobody will tell you from my experience,

Andrew (00:30:35):
They're not, they

Zack Donovant (00:30:35):
Don't care. They don't care. Okay. Okay. You know, as long as you don't go too deep with your

Andrew (00:30:39):
Flutes and you're an un fluted guy,

Hunter (00:30:42):
Uh, I could go, I could deal without, I could go either way want. Okay. You know, because Yeah, it does look a little different mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but I'm, you know, I've never been a real,

Andrew (00:30:52):
You're more function over fashion. Yeah. Okay.

Hunter (00:30:53):
Yeah. I'm kind of that way.

Andrew (00:30:55):
I'm exactly the opposite.

Hunter (00:30:57):
<laugh>

Andrew (00:30:57):
<laugh>. So, but, but in my eyes, when I got my gun built, I wanted a custom gun. And this is helping it. Yeah. It's not only is it custom start to finish, but it's custom towards me. Right. So mine is a 12 micro twist. So I think over the length of the barrel, they only go one twist, which is 26 inches, but it, um, but it's a bunch of little grooves, so it's kind of, kind of trippy looking on your eyes. Yeah. Z looks like two or three really big heavy grooves. It looks like a mason, which

Hunter (00:31:28):
Is spiral fluided. Right.

Andrew (00:31:29):
Yeah. So heavy, heavy. So you,

Hunter (00:31:30):
You like it just for the looks of

Zack Donovant (00:31:32):
It's Yeah. Most that's, most of mine are, are six flutes and I'll run eight twi, one and eight twist on the barrel and it's six flutes the faster. And I have some that are six and a half twist. The faster you run the twist, the deeper it actually looks. So it's a Okay. You know, it's an optical illusion. Yeah. The faster it is, the deeper it looks. Yeah. And, um,

Andrew (00:31:54):
It's cool looking. It's, it's not for me. No. It looks, it's

Zack Donovant (00:31:56):
Very cool looking. It looks like a concrete bit. It

Andrew (00:31:58):
Looks like a s it looks like it's go in a hammer drill and you run the ground. I'm picturing

Hunter (00:32:01):
It's

Zack Donovant (00:32:01):
My flutes are no deeper than the flutes on your, on handgun.

Andrew (00:32:05):
It's just a, an illusion. Cause there's half as many. Exactly. And twice as fast. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Zack Donovant (00:32:09):
So I think yours is either 12 or 14 twist. Okay. So you're running,

Andrew (00:32:14):
I'm getting like one and a half

Zack Donovant (00:32:15):
Twist. Yeah. Something like that on yours. Okay. But you have those smaller micro flutes. Yep. And then I've got six flutes and then running them faster. It, for me it's not so much about, it's not weight because you are not taking a lot of material off of that.

Hunter (00:32:27):
You're really not. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:32:28):
I mean, you might save, uh, two ounces. You're, we're not talking half a pound or a pound and floating a barrel. And

Andrew (00:32:35):
What is Andy had a interrupted fluted interrupted, which kinda looks like golf.

Zack Donovant (00:32:39):
Yeah. Yes.

Andrew (00:32:40):
Kind dimples. You know, it'll go make a maybe a quarter inch dimple and then rise and quarter inch dimple edge. It's kind of need lu. Yeah. Not for me. No. It's kind of need looking, but it's his custom gun, not my custom. That's right. <laugh>. And you go, so you go back, we've already covered the chambering and the headspace and the lighting and everything. You put a recoil lug in every gun or every gun that needs one.

Zack Donovant (00:33:00):
Every gun that needs one. Um, and then even on ones that do not come with recoil, lus, like tikas mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, they have the internal lu that's built into the stock and they have a little notch in the action and they, they mate together, you know, if male and female in, well, I'll cut that action face back, it's got a taper in the front of it and I'll set 'em up in the lathe, indicate 'em, cut that action face back, take the taper out, and then add an external. It's, it's called, um, um, oh, I wanna write that down. <laugh>,

Hunter (00:33:34):
I forgot

Andrew (00:33:34):
Something.

Zack Donovant (00:33:35):
Yeah. Tombstone recall.

Andrew (00:33:37):
Okay, here you go. Start over talking tombstone. I like and watched that movie last night.

Zack Donovant (00:33:41):
Yeah. On the, for those

Andrew (00:33:42):
Tikas.

Hunter (00:33:43):
But,

Zack Donovant (00:33:43):
Uh, the, um, and, and it's, so it, that's more so I can add instead of going from, um, you know, an inch intro, 80 diameter, I can take it up to an inch, 200 diameter. Okay. And I'm a believer in having more material in that chamber and

Andrew (00:33:58):
Breathing. Is that protecting the action from a kaboom, or what is the recall log actually doing

Zack Donovant (00:34:03):
The, no, the recall lu is just the, you have a, a better bedding area. Okay. So when you're, you know, when you're cutting your stock out and you're in letting your stock, you can, you know, you mill that notch out for the recall log and you have a better bedding area. Your action screws are holding the action to the stock. Um, it's not like it's going backwards. It's not like PPCs where we glue those actions in without screws in 'em at all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. Um, these are beded and they're screwed in, but that recall log just helps with that momentum of the action moving. And you have more bedding area to lock it in. So, okay.

Hunter (00:34:38):
So you keep, you brought up like the tikas a couple times and it's very rare to see someone custom build something off of a Tika action. So Yeah. I don't think there's a lot of people doing that. But you, you've built a lot of custom stuff with a T3 Tika action, which is a great action that I got

Zack Donovant (00:34:57):
Here at Greentown

Hunter (00:34:58):
That you got here. That's right. <laugh>. That's right. That's right.

Andrew (00:35:00):
You heard it here first. But

Hunter (00:35:01):
A lot of people f you know, a lot of people like Tikas. One reason being is the weight of those rifles. Yes. The actions are very smooth and smooth as grass triggers are pretty, pretty good right out of the box. And you can

Andrew (00:35:12):
Work very inexpensively. You can work a tika trigger down to, uh, almost competition weight or a good hunting weight.

Zack Donovant (00:35:19):
I can work most of the time you can work a tika trigger down lighter than what people want to have.

Hunter (00:35:24):
Okay. Where

Zack Donovant (00:35:24):
It scares 'em, you know, and for most people a 12 ounce trigger is scary. It's touching.

Hunter (00:35:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Especially if they're wearing gloves or hunting, you know what I

Zack Donovant (00:35:32):
Mean? And so for, you know, $25 you can add a, a spring and change the spring out on the trigger And uh, it's just a simple Allen screw, pull it out, put the spring on the de 10, screw it back in, and now you can go all the way, you can go back up to three pounds or whatever you want. Or you can go down to 12 ounces

Andrew (00:35:52):
Up there. Yeah. And they're, they're nice light, sleek actions. They're well-built actions. They're very well built actions and they look really good in a carbon barrel. They do that matches nice and seamless on this off nice

Zack Donovant (00:36:01):
Big mill in stock. Yep. And nice carbon fiber barrel. I like the tikas. You know, with, with Aica you have a Detachable magazine and, and a lot of times, especially me, you guys know I love Wildcats mm-hmm. <affirmative>, everything has to be an acle or it has to be something different. Sure. Um, it's cause I have a lathe and so let's do something different. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so, um, with a Center Feed Stack magazine, they always feed better than a stagger feed. Like what you see out of a regular LinkedIn 700.

Andrew (00:36:34):
Yeah. A double Stack magazine. That's right.

Zack Donovant (00:36:35):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So Center feed feeds easier. So they're

Andrew (00:36:38):
Right on top of each other.

Zack Donovant (00:36:39):
They're right on top of each other. Yep. Yep. So they feed easier. You have that Detachable Box magazine. So if you wanna take 2, 3, 10 clips, whatever you wanna bring with you, um, if you're Prairie Dog hunting or Vain Hunting or whatever may be, you know, you can have multiple clips and so you're not sitting there feeding. Um, so you have an Detachable Box magazine, you have a side boat release already. Yep. You have a Sacco extractor. Um, you know, all the things that we do on a Remington to upgrade a Remington 700 and get rid of that, that Remington extractor and put a Sacco or M 16 extractor in it already has that in it. Um, instead of putting a Timney trigger or JUUL trigger in and, and spending that money, we just put a trigger springing in and, and you're there, uh, pretty close to the same, you can almost get Jewel pool weight Yeah. Out of just a twist.

Andrew (00:37:28):
And they're nice and every crisp too. They're very crisp, you know, for a factory what comes outta the box is a three pound trigger. Yeah. It, it shapes up pretty nice.

Zack Donovant (00:37:35):
And, and I'll say this about Tikas and I'm, you know, I'm not, uh, in any way affiliated with Tika <laugh>. Yeah. I, I just, I really like 'em. But so Tika is the only mass produced factory rifle that has guaranteed Headspace. So isn't

Andrew (00:37:49):
That I did not know. I didn't either.

Zack Donovant (00:37:51):
So in my world, you know, guaranteed Headspace, we only typically see that out of your high-end custom actions bat machine defiance. Leys. Okay. You know. Okay. Board and actions, those, those high dollar actions.

Andrew (00:38:05):
And you can build on those

Zack Donovant (00:38:06):
Too. Absolutely. Okay. Yep. And I build a lot on those, you know, I do a lot on those rifles as well, but, so Tika is the only one that is a mass produced factory rifle that has guaranteed Headspace. So you can screw one barrel off, one barrel on and you're good to go. Okay. Um, the, there's a lot of companies out there, um, that will do pre FITT barrels for Tikas. So Hawk Hill mm-hmm. <affirmative> will pre fitt.

Hunter (00:38:35):
I didn't know that. So they do, I didn't pre

Zack Donovant (00:38:37):
Fitt. Okay.

Hunter (00:38:37):
Yeah, they do. And then you get a lot proof, proof barrels

Zack Donovant (00:38:40):
Obviously. Yeah. And actually proof does, you can, uh, you guys can get 'em, yeah. You

Hunter (00:38:44):
Can get proof. And they proof doesn't just do carbon fiber, they do steel still. They they do

Andrew (00:38:47):
Steel barrels. That's right.

Zack Donovant (00:38:48):
Yeah. Well, they will do a pre FITT barrel proof research wheel. We'll do a pre FITT barrel for aca. Cool. And it has guaranteed head space. So the other thing, it makes

Andrew (00:38:57):
Dun Smith's job real easy, doesn't it? Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:38:59):
Yeah. You screw one on, screw one off,

Andrew (00:39:00):
You know.

Hunter (00:39:01):
So, but there's an example of if you want to customize something, improve or go with a different barrel profile or a carbon, say, say I wanted to do a six five PRC Right. In a Tika T3 action with a proof, uh, carbon fiber and you already

Andrew (00:39:17):
Owned the rifle

Hunter (00:39:18):
And I already owned the rifle. Yeah. That's a pretty simple, um, yeah. And

Zack Donovant (00:39:22):
That's

Andrew (00:39:23):
A pretty good, pretty easy jump.

Zack Donovant (00:39:24):
Yep. Yeah. And it's another thing about Tika is again, not trying to just sit here and plug tikas, but the fact that all Tika actions are the same length. Yep. There is not a, there is no short action, there is no long action. It's just the action.

Hunter (00:39:37):
It's a Tika action.

Zack Donovant (00:39:37):
It's a Tika action. Yep. And what they do, if you have a, let's say you have a 2 43 or a 7 0 8 or six five CRE or whatever, and a 3 0 8 in your, you know, short action, typical short action calibers mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they have a bolt stop, a different bolt stop on the side, bolt release. It just has a forward de tent basically in that, in that bolt stop where the bolt stops further forward. Okay. It has a different magazine where it's got, there's a little

Andrew (00:40:04):
Block in

Zack Donovant (00:40:05):
It, a little block in the back of it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so the round doesn't go all the way to the back. It goes where it's supposed to go and it feeds outta there flawlessly. If you decide you want to have, if you have a 2 43 and you want to build a two 80 acli or you know, whatever it may be, all you have to do is swap out the bolt stop and swap out the magazine. Okay. And you can buy those magazines, you know, if you

Andrew (00:40:27):
Go Yeah. And if you like your action in the stock, you can then just almost plug and place. Exactly.

Zack Donovant (00:40:32):
Throw another the

Hunter (00:40:32):
Barrel away. Yeah. Cause you can get the mags right off of Well, Beretta owns Tika. That's right. Uh, in case anybody didn't know that Beretta the gun company, they also owned Tika. But you can buy them directly off, very off site as far as I know. Um, yeah. You know, um, so what, what I was getting ready to say was, um, let's just, so, so you brought up a good point with, um, the proof barrels, they're ready to roll. Yeah. You just kind of stick 'em on. They're, they're, they're good to go. But there are times that most of the time you're, when you're getting a barrel that you're customed doing, that's you're custom building for somebody. Are you, are you cutting the chamber yourself or are, or is this stuff already coming? Are these barrels already coming in pre chambered? What, what, what does this depend on the barrel maker or,

Zack Donovant (00:41:18):
I don't, I don't typically do pre fitts. Okay.

Hunter (00:41:20):
For, for

Zack Donovant (00:41:21):
People. Or I don't buy pre fitt and we'll put one on, um, what I get are, are the blanks. So it is, um, I'll buy a contour mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, we'll figure out what contour we want to use. I'll have the contoured barrel, but

Andrew (00:41:35):
And you don't flute 'em, you'll buy 'em fluted or non fluted, right? Yeah, that's right.

Zack Donovant (00:41:38):
Okay. Okay. I don't have a CNC machine. Okay. So everything I do is, is manual. Manual lathe, manual meal. Okay. Okay.

Andrew (00:41:44):
Um, so if you wanted a, a six twist, six groove, ciero, flute brooks, you'd buy it contoured, fluted, and then you'd do all the fitting. That's right.

Zack Donovant (00:41:54):
Okay. Okay. Yep. So when I get 'em in, they're already contoured. They're, they're blank. So the typ typical blank is 27 to 29 or 31 inches, 33. I mean, it goes on and on. Yeah. But, but typically for hunting barrels it's a 27 or 29 inch blank from the barrel manufacturer. So I can cut it anywhere from there backwards. And of course, if we're having it fluted, we need to know what length, barrel length

Andrew (00:42:19):
The finish length is

Zack Donovant (00:42:20):
Because the flutes can only go so far forward. Correct. Cause you need that, you know, you need that material in front of it, whether you're threatening it or just crowning it or whatever it may be. Yeah. Um, so when they come in, they're blanks. I set everything up in my lathe, um, in a for jaw on the end board. And then I have a for jaw spider on the outboard, uh, of my lathe. And I indicate both ends. So first thing I do is set it up and I indicate the outside of the barrels, which just gives me a, a rough dimension. And then I've got test indicator meto test indicators that I go into the bore of the rifle and of the barrel, excuse me, and will indicate to the 10th power to the fourth power. So I'm going to one 10th of one thousandths of an inch that I'm indicating these bores of these of the rifles before I start doing anything

Andrew (00:43:09):
Pretty

Zack Donovant (00:43:09):
Exact. Yeah. A 10th of a thousand. It's pretty, pretty small. It's pretty good. It's pretty small. It's pretty good. And,

Andrew (00:43:14):
Uh, so I don't think I can count that low.

Zack Donovant (00:43:15):
Well, so I indicate 'em, we go off of, you want to go off of whatever your finish length is because you're indicating right where the crown is gonna be, you know where your muzzle is gonna be. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then I indicate the throat, which is where the bullet is engaging the rifling. And those are your, you know, two most important parts. And then from there, I work backwards on the chamber. So I'll pre-drill, um, I've got these special drill bits, um, mechanic drill bits they're called and um, they're carbide bits. So I, I'll drill the barrel to a certain length and then I'll take a boin bar and I finish it out to the, you know, to an undersize of what the chamber dimension will be. So let's say I'm doing that six br and the chamber dimension's, you know, gonna finish at 470 thousands, then I'll cut that diameter inside of my boar to, you know, 435, 4 40 thousands. So I've got that, you know, 30, 35 thousands cut cleanup that the reamer's gonna do. So it's easy on the reamer. Okay. Um, and then, but because the reason I do that is because if you were to just run the reamer right in the reamer is going to follow whatever hole is already in the

Andrew (00:44:26):
Maryland mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay.

Zack Donovant (00:44:27):
So that's why I pre bore all of my chambers so I can make the reamer follow what I want it to do.

Andrew (00:44:33):
Exactly where you put

Zack Donovant (00:44:35):
It exactly where I

Hunter (00:44:35):
Put it. God, it makes your job easier. Yeah. And it's doing it actually at a

Andrew (00:44:40):
More, less effective, it's less stress on the reer. It's a

Hunter (00:44:41):
More effective

Zack Donovant (00:44:42):
Way to do, it's a less stress on the reamer. Yeah. Um,

Andrew (00:44:44):
More consistent. You

Zack Donovant (00:44:45):
Get better life out of the reamer that way. Okay. Um, you have Andrew, you've seen,

Andrew (00:44:50):
You'll get good life outta my re cause you may not build another one like it <laugh>,

Zack Donovant (00:44:55):
I don't know your reamer will probably rust.

Andrew (00:44:57):
Yeah. You know, sitting

Zack Donovant (00:44:58):
Over

Andrew (00:44:58):
In the corner in 60 years when I shoot this one out, I might get another one built <laugh>. Yeah. So

Zack Donovant (00:45:03):
By, like I said, by pre-born, those, those chambers and, and the way that we're setting it up, um, we're making sure that everything is zeroed off of the lands, off of that throat area where the bullet is going backwards. And it, I don't, it doesn't matter how good the greatest barrel manufacturer that there is, it always seems like there's a little deflection in the very beginning mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you can take that test indicator and run up to where your throat area is. And if you start working backwards, now we're not talking about thousands of inches of deflection. You may have two tents or three tents. It's very small. Yeah. But we're not trying to just do an off the shelf.

Andrew (00:45:47):
Right. Correct. Because that's what you get with an off rack gun. Yeah. You want a custom gun. But, but,

Hunter (00:45:51):
But to put it in perspective for, for people listening, think about what you're buying off the shelf and, and what the, I mean no, nothing near the amount of work that you're talking about was put into building a just a, a

Andrew (00:46:06):
Insert brand doesn't even matter. Regular

Hunter (00:46:08):
Whoever. Yep. Exult, browning, Remington 700 or, or whatever. Um, even Aara, you know, same thing

Andrew (00:46:14):
And not running them down, but they don't get anywhere near the attention that these rifles

Hunter (00:46:18):
Get and all those rifles they shoot great mm-hmm. <affirmative> for what you want to use 'em for. But these little things you're talking about doing, they make a big difference in the long run as far as as how the gun's gonna shoot its accuracy and how it's gonna hold up Well it

Andrew (00:46:30):
Start to finish. Yeah.

Hunter (00:46:31):
So, well

Zack Donovant (00:46:32):
The, we always kind of correlate it to the difference of it shoots everything well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, when you're taking that fussiness out of the barrel or outta the caliber, whatever it may be. You're you're taking that finicky out of it. Yeah. You know, by, by perfecting the chamber, um, by getting that custom single point cut hand lapped barrel. Yeah. Um, by doing those things, by squaring action faces up and bolt faces up and lug abutments and, and action threads and doing all those things, you're just putting everything in line because you have so many parts and pieces that are touching on a bolt action rifle. Yep. You know, you have a bolt and a raceway, you have lug abutments at the end of the raceway, you have bolt lugs, you have a bolt face, you have action threads, an action face, a recall lu threads on your barrel. Right. You know, a shoulder on your barrel. All those things have to made together. Yep. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if you have seamless, seamless, and if you have anything, you start pulling one out. You know, again, a, a thousandths of an inch at the chamber. If you have a 30 inch barrel, well guess how far out that is? Yep.

Andrew (00:47:45):
You've just throw your way off. Yeah, yeah. You

Zack Donovant (00:47:46):
Know, you've just thrown that whole thing off a thousands of an inch at the, at the chamber in, now you go 30 inches. Yeah.

Andrew (00:47:52):
Yeah. And it's like a, a, a carpenter's term would be star square finish square. Exactly. If you start with how you want it to start, it will finish how you want it to finish. It will go according to plan. Exactly.

Hunter (00:48:02):
Like you said, it almost shoots everything. It almost takes the fun out of trying to find what the rifle shoots. But

Zack Donovant (00:48:07):
Yeah, I I get that.

Andrew (00:48:08):
I hear mine shot factory. I as good as a halo. Right. I was like, it was a little sad. Yeah. Which is great cuz I don't hand load, but Right. It's like, man, this is, this gun's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Yeah. I get

Zack Donovant (00:48:18):
That is pretty good. I hear, uh, these are boring rifles. <laugh>, and that's they's.

Andrew (00:48:23):
Okay.

Hunter (00:48:23):
Cause they shoot the same home right

Andrew (00:48:25):
Here. Yeah, that's right. That's, that's okay. That's what you're after. Yeah, exactly. Um, I'm

Hunter (00:48:28):
Okay with, but if you're competitive like you are and that's what kind of got you into this. Yes. And you know, and if you have a group of friends that you shoot with and, and you're tired of getting beat for whatever reason, you can, you

Andrew (00:48:40):
Can gain

Hunter (00:48:41):
That edge. You can gain that edge by going custom. Right. And, uh,

Zack Donovant (00:48:44):
And you know, and, and there's terms to custom and there's different levels of it. Like you were alluding to earlier. Um, the difference of just changing a barrel out Yeah. You know, on a preexisting gun that you already have, um, where you don't have to go into that rabbit hole of 2, 3, 4, $10,000, you know, builds. Um,

Andrew (00:49:06):
But you can buy a $10,000 factory gun. Yeah. I mean it's, it's quote unquote custom. Right. But you can buy it off the rack but produce Correct.

Zack Donovant (00:49:13):
Yeah. Off the rack. Yep. $10,000 rifle and, and we don't, and there's not a lot of 10,000 No, there's not rifles even

Andrew (00:49:21):
There's some fours and fives,

Zack Donovant (00:49:22):
But there's a lot of four and $5,000. Especially you get into the competition stuff. Yeah. I mean actions, just the receiver a lot of times was 17, 1800, $2,000 just for a receiver. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you still have to have a stock and a trigger. Yeah. And you know, all the other things that go with it. It goes, it

Hunter (00:49:38):
Ends up quick. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like, uh, anybody that's building their own AR 15. Right. A lot of people listening to this, they've probably done that and they started out saying, I'm gonna build this so cheap, I'm gonna be under 500. Well, next thing you know, they're at nine 50 <laugh>. Yeah. Because they wasn't no scope. Well because they, because they decided to, you know what, I'm gonna spend the extra on this because it's worth it. I'm gonna spend the extra on

Zack Donovant (00:50:00):
That. I'm gonna get the adjustable gas

Hunter (00:50:01):
Block. And you know what, and that's

Andrew (00:50:02):
Great. What went metal sites, not the plastic science they

Hunter (00:50:05):
Built, they built something custom that to their liking. And at the same time, I guess the point I'm trying to make with this also is if you're custom building as an investment, you're doing it for the wrong reason. Yes. Because the invest, the true investment is for you, is in, is for, is for what's gonna make you happy. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's gonna, it's gonna fulfill an application that you want to Exactly. If you're buying this to resell in five years because you think it's worth more, it is not not gonna happen. That's, that's not gonna happen. Because the custom stuff is, and probably in your experience Right. It's very difficult to get what you've put into it, out of it. Well, the odds unless you find somebody

Andrew (00:50:41):
Yeah. The odds of somebody wanting my McMillan 26 inch twisted Brooks jewel triggered seven s t w for what I want for it. Right. Is nonexistent. Well,

Zack Donovant (00:50:51):
Unless there's, unless there's a lot of green top podcast listeners in, uh, nursing homes. Correct.

Andrew (00:50:57):
Right.

Hunter (00:50:57):
Correct.

Andrew (00:50:58):
Yeah. They're retired farmers. Yeah. <laugh>, they're, they're, they're 70 and they're mad about Vietnam. Yeah.

Hunter (00:51:04):
The day when you want to trade that rifle. And I want you to come to me cause Oh no, I'm gonna give you the price. No, no. <laugh>,

Andrew (00:51:09):
I'm gonna go, I will throw the barrel in a river and start over before I trade it in. Yeah. <laugh>.

Hunter (00:51:14):
Um,

Andrew (00:51:16):
Just, just as you brought up stocks, you're not married to any stocks. You'll order and put on whatever somebody wants. That is probably the most customer reliant part you have. Right. They have to pick their own stock.

Zack Donovant (00:51:29):
Yeah. Because it, it, it, again, it's appearance. Feel weight. Yeah. You know what I like, uh, a lot of people don't like Yeah. You know, I love

Andrew (00:51:39):
Big hands. Small hands. Yeah. Pistol grips, straight stock. I've

Zack Donovant (00:51:42):
Got a big palm, big hands, big palm. And so I like that. Vertical grip McMillan game hunter palms. Well, yep. Type stock

Andrew (00:51:51):
Palms. Well, vertical grip. Yep.

Zack Donovant (00:51:52):
Exactly. And a lot of that came from shooting competition. The way that it becomes muscle memory and you're holding the gun, gripping the gun a certain way. Shooting a certain way. And so going over into my hunting rifles, I want that same kind of thing,

Andrew (00:52:08):
The same feel,

Zack Donovant (00:52:09):
Right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but a lot of people don't like that vertical grip with the bigger palm swell. They want to have more of a

Andrew (00:52:15):
Sporter style. Yeah. Yeah. More of a, a 60 degree sporter style.

Hunter (00:52:18):
A little more narrow maybe. Right. And

Andrew (00:52:20):
It, and that'll compliment or detract from your overall weight and length and style build. If you wanted a 400 yard sporter gun, you shouldn't put a McMillan or a game scout on. You should, you should put one that's the right fit. Yeah. So you don't want a big heavy, big cheek piece. Big palm swell, big beaver tail on a 20 inch, you know, pencil barrel. Right. You want to, you know, you just all gotta flow together. Well

Hunter (00:52:45):
The stock too is gonna, if, if you're building it for flare, like some people do mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the stock is what's

Andrew (00:52:51):
Gonna <laugh>

Hunter (00:52:52):
The stock is what's gonna, it pops really make the rifle pop. Yep.

Andrew (00:52:56):
This the first thing you see is the stop.

Hunter (00:52:57):
Yeah. Right. And so making that decision on what you want and if it, if you want color, you want, if it's camo or

Andrew (00:53:03):
Whatever, it's Yeah. Mine's speckles, mine's tan, black speckles on.

Hunter (00:53:06):
Yeah. Which I'm a fan of that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I can go for that. And

Andrew (00:53:08):
My other rifle's black with tan speckles. So I got cover's your other, I got a yin and yang.

Hunter (00:53:12):
So Good, good way

Andrew (00:53:14):
To, that's a segue. Wasn't that an awesome

Hunter (00:53:16):
Plug? That's where we'll close it out before

Andrew (00:53:17):
We get to that triggers is on the customer too.

Zack Donovant (00:53:20):
Well, again, it's one of those, it's a personal preference and it's what you're wanting to do. You

Andrew (00:53:24):
Have preference?

Zack Donovant (00:53:25):
I most certainly do have a

Andrew (00:53:27):
Preference. Okay. Which is jewel triggers, which is to a lot of people the only trigger. Yeah. Yeah. Now there are some great, great, great options. Trigger techs, Timney, Bix,

Zack Donovant (00:53:36):
And Andy, you can, there's a lot of different options.

Andrew (00:53:39):
You can do whatever you want and, but you're a jewel guy.

Zack Donovant (00:53:42):
Well, you can do so much with the Juul. Correct. You know, you can take that.

Andrew (00:53:46):
That's a plug and play

Zack Donovant (00:53:47):
Trigger. Yeah. Where that timney trigger, you're not taking it down to one ounce. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> one and a half ounces. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, if you want one and a half pounds, it's perfect. Sure. Um, if you want eight ounces, it's gonna be tougher to get there. Unless you're using one of the Calvin Elites or whatever. Yeah. Tim triggers.

Andrew (00:54:01):
And that in total opposite from the Tika trigger, all that adds to your price. Exactly. The triggers an upgrade, the stock's an upgrade, which, you know, the stock can be, you can buy nice stock and be very cost effective. Yes. You can buy a stock, it feels exactly the same. It's three times the price. Right. So it that go boils down to your final finished price.

Zack Donovant (00:54:19):
Feels the same, but it's heavier but isn't

Andrew (00:54:21):
The same. Right. Exactly. There a lot of it's quality material. Yeah. But you're, which you just brought up. My other rifle is a muzz loader. Yeah. Smokeless.

Hunter (00:54:29):
Yep.

Andrew (00:54:30):
Big kaboom. Big hit.

Hunter (00:54:32):
Yeah. No smoke,

Andrew (00:54:33):
No smoke. Suppressed. Yeah.

Hunter (00:54:35):
Suppressed. Suppressed. Yeah. Man. So that's, that's been a, the last decade I'd say. Yeah. Or more Yeah. Than real people that want to go get away from the traditional muzzle loading, but still do it legally, but do it with smokeless powder. Right. So it's lot less to clean. You're getting a lot more speed, energy and range. Yeah. That's the whole key is you can shoot, you can shoot buck nasty at 500 yards. Yeah. Ranges

Andrew (00:55:01):
Versus my gun is sight, mine is cited at 200 and I feel confident at five. Right. And I don't think my, my ability is not confident past six. So the gun will shoot as good as I can shoot. Yeah. Yep. Probably better

Hunter (00:55:14):
Devastating what these guns do. Yes. It's devastating.

Andrew (00:55:16):
It is two mine is

Hunter (00:55:18):
It's ethical.

Andrew (00:55:19):
Yes. Very,

Hunter (00:55:19):
Very ethical. But, so my

Andrew (00:55:21):
Gun is custom. It's short, it's 21 inch. So it, with my suppressor, I'm not, I don't have a 72 inch gun and it's kind of, kind of compact

Zack Donovant (00:55:30):
So you can swing out the truck door easier.

Andrew (00:55:31):
<laugh>. Well, it's hard with the can on it, but if I can get it out and then screw the can on, it's a lot easier. You go. Yeah. Uh, well it's hard to do that while holding the light while driving. Right. It's very, very difficult. <laugh> uh, it's a two man operation. Um, but the gun overall length isn't crazy. Yep. And I didn't lose a ton of speed by cutting the barrel back.

Hunter (00:55:49):
You really don't. So that

Andrew (00:55:50):
I'm Yeah. You know, play with the powder some and play with your bullet swag, which Zach could probably go into what a swag or die does for most people. And once you get your fit and your load Right. And the formula's correct. I think, uh, my last shot was 28. 28 feet per second. Yeah. Uh, suppressed at a hundred yards and two, two bullets. One hole. Yeah. And, and that's

Hunter (00:56:13):
A insane and that's a, that's a, that's a 275 grain. 2 78, 278 grain, 45 caliber bullet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, pushing 28, 2900 feet a second.

Andrew (00:56:22):
Correct. So you are double what a 30 out six is Correct. Same speed twice the weight your

Hunter (00:56:27):
Traditional muzzle loader, I'd say averages what, 1800 feet

Andrew (00:56:30):
A second, 18 to 2000 1800

Hunter (00:56:31):
Depending. Depend weight, bullet.

Andrew (00:56:33):
And that's, that's, yeah, I would say two thousands pretty good. That's,

Zack Donovant (00:56:36):
That's pushing a lot.

Andrew (00:56:36):
A two 50, like a, like a two 50 cva, two 50 grand bullet with 80 grains. Uh, by weight, a black horn, you're probably about 2000, maybe 22 if you playing just right.

Hunter (00:56:48):
Now, obviously, if somebody wanted to purchase one of these things for this year, it's not gonna happen because you're no custom, obviously you're, you're six to eight months out on a lot of, on any custom build right now, wouldn't you say? Right. Yes, sir.

Andrew (00:57:02):
And a, a smokeless gun, it is a muzzle loader. It is not a smokeless muzzle loader because if I went to, uh, I don't know this to be fact, but like New Mexico, Colorado, wherever mm-hmm. <affirmative> where I had to shoot black powder through guns will handle black powder. Correct. It's a lot of it. Yeah. It's a big kaboom. Yeah. It's a big puff of smoke, but it can be a long range smokeless and a long-range black powder to shoot

Hunter (00:57:26):
Like black horn 29

Andrew (00:57:28):
Or Yeah. And a, a good customer of ours has set 'em up with iron sites where in Colorado you can't use magnified optics. Yeah. You could have a, you gotta be a shooter, but you could have a 500 yard black powder iron site gun. Yes, you could. And, and you're not gonna get that off of rack mm-hmm. <affirmative> at all. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you're really looking to gain that edge out west, it'll probably pay for itself more out west or locally where you can't shoot a rifle where like, uh, prince George County or Caroline County was last year, you know, where you're picking up that edge.

Zack Donovant (00:57:56):
And that's where it got into is the, you know, we had a lot of guys that were going to Ohio or going to Indiana or wherever where it had to be slug guns or had to be a muzzle loader mm-hmm. <affirmative> that they could hunt with. And like you said, you've got Mr. Buck nasty walking out at 3, 4, 500 yards mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you're just, you're just sitting. It's

Hunter (00:58:17):
Killing. You just got, all you can do is watch it and,

Andrew (00:58:19):
And he's twice as far as you can shoot. That's what, not only is he a hundred yards too far, he's twice as far. But,

Hunter (00:58:23):
But that's always what has pushed me that, you know, watching him at that distance and not being able to do nothing about it. But two, the ignition system Yeah. That was critical for, more critical for me because everyone's had that experience with a, a mu, a traditional muzzle loader where it's wet outside, you get a delayed fire mm-hmm. <affirmative> or you didn't clean or no

Andrew (00:58:44):
Fire when you got

Hunter (00:58:45):
No fire at all. Yeah. And it's, man, it's frustrating and, and of course it always happens

Andrew (00:58:49):
When the man walks out

Hunter (00:58:51):
Oh yeah. When Buck Nastys out there. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, um, that's what did it for me cuz I just got tired of, you know, cuz I, I fought for time to hunt mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when I finally got time to hunt, I did everything right. I, I located a buck, I found him, he walked right out. He was only 60 yards. He's in

Andrew (00:59:08):
Your cross hairs. And I

Hunter (00:59:08):
Had a delayed fire on an encore and I just said, screw this man. That's enough. I'm done. I'm done with this mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'm, I'm going, I'm spending the money. Yeah. And, and ever since I've done that, it's, it's my favorite gun in my entire collection.

Andrew (00:59:20):
I, I see me going back

Hunter (00:59:21):
Because it is ever, like I said, it's devastating.

Andrew (00:59:24):
Yep. I would build a, I would build a long range black powder gun before I went back to an just me an off the shelf black powder gun. Well, I would take, I would build a, what I have in black powder, I

Hunter (00:59:34):
Probably still to this day, I'd take my smokeless muzzle loader, even if it's rifle season. Sure. I, I'll take it out because it's,

Andrew (00:59:40):
It crushes a deer,

Hunter (00:59:41):
Man. It is incredible.

Andrew (00:59:42):
You track very, very, very few deer. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (00:59:44):
Yeah. Well, you're shooting a river singer to throw 'em at three pounds,

Andrew (00:59:46):
34 seconds. <laugh>. Exactly right. <laugh>, I mean, it zips 'em, it is, uh, it, it hits 'em hard. It hits some clean, uh, no smoke. You get to see what happens after you shoot. There is some recoil with it, but it's a big cow. It's a magnum caliber. Yeah. And you don't have to clean it, you clean it at your discretion.

Zack Donovant (01:00:05):
Yeah. But when you pull the trigger, like what you were saying, hunter, when you pull the trigger, it goes bang.

Andrew (01:00:10):
Oh. Oh yeah. There's no question you're just shooting rifle primers than a, like the primers significantly more advanced ignition system. Exactly.

Hunter (01:00:15):
Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. It's pretty cool. And you know, so that's, that's another, um, custom rifle that you, that you do at, um, old Dominion custom rifles. Um, anything else we need to cover?

Andrew (01:00:28):
What's, what's a hot caliber right now? Yeah. What That's what's, so what now is six months ahead? Well what are, what are you see in maybe shorter long action for a hunting caliber?

Zack Donovant (01:00:38):
So the, for me it's a little different because I've got a few guys, you guys know one of 'em mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, Mr. Ricky Davidson. And, and I've got a couple of guys like Ricky throughout the, the country. One in Oregon. You got

Andrew (01:00:51):
Oregon scattered. Yeah. Yeah. Joe's in Oregon. Ronnie in North Carolina.

Hunter (01:00:55):
North Carolina r and d guys or

Andrew (01:00:56):
Something. Yeah. So well r and d not for Ricky Davidson, but research and development. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:01:01):
So they, you know, it's like for whatever reason people in that area know, well if I'm in Western North Carolina, if I need a rifle built, you go see Ronnie Mathis and, and he will set them up with a rifle and you know, custom ammunition and let 'em shoot and gives them shooting lessons, takes 'em out, proves the rifle, 600, 800,000 yards. Joe does the same thing. He's got 980 yard or 990 yard steel plates set up mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And these people set 'em right there and shoot until they're comfortable shooting all the way out to those distances. Yep. And so it's funny out there in Oregon, the 300 norma mag improved right now. Okay.

Andrew (01:01:44):
That's what, that's what's hot.

Zack Donovant (01:01:45):
That is the big ticket item. Okay. In, in Oregon that 300 norma mag improve 35 or 40 degree shoulder. Now we're again, we're talking wild cap Sure. Acli cartridges, which it's a commercially available 300 Norma mag, but we're just actually in that shoulder getting a little more speed out of it. Sure.

Andrew (01:02:04):
And it's a two caliber gun. You can shoot the factory Norma's plus you can hand load

Zack Donovant (01:02:08):
Acles. Yeah. And they're shooting 200 grain aons at 3,300 feet per second.

Hunter (01:02:14):
Wow. Wow. And that's an, I mean the Aons a great bullet.

Andrew (01:02:16):
I mean Yeah. They're crushing deer. That's Elk and Edison, whatever elk. So

Zack Donovant (01:02:22):
You know, out there they have the Roosevelt elk mm-hmm <affirmative> and in that part of Oregon where Joe is at, you know, huge body. Yeah. Not always the biggest horn but just massive body. Yep. Wow. Elk out there. Like my daughter, my beautiful 12 year old, she's now 13. Uh, we went out and she killed, uh, Roosevelt Elk with Joe, my buddy Joe. We went out there and she killed a Roosevelt cow Elk 600 and I think 620 pound cow elk. Yeah.

Andrew (01:02:50):
Very 6 5 50. That was last

Hunter (01:02:52):
Right? That was last year. Right. Was last year. Yeah. Cause you sent me, I think you sent me some pictures on that. That's right. Yeah,

Andrew (01:02:56):
That's right. Six five Swiss

Zack Donovant (01:02:57):
Six five by 55 Swed Aley. So I gotta love the

Andrew (01:03:02):
Ac. Very cool. On Aika, big bullet on

Hunter (01:03:04):
A,

Andrew (01:03:04):
On

Zack Donovant (01:03:05):
Aika one 40 Aon. Okay. Yeah. And she 487 yards and she, we just clicked right up to it and

Andrew (01:03:13):
Pull bang. Yep.

Zack Donovant (01:03:15):
Talked a little bit. And uh, we bought a, um, if you don't have one, you need to get one here from green top. Get the bog trigger or uh, death grip.

Hunter (01:03:25):
Oh, the death grip tighten stick. Yeah. The death

Zack Donovant (01:03:26):
Grip. Nice. So 12 year old, uh, 487 yards standing shot her cow elk. Crushed it. Crushed

Hunter (01:03:34):
It.

Andrew (01:03:35):
So what do you see on the eastern side? You see smaller calibers from Yeah. Thin. What is Ronnie's thin skin? 140 pound Carolina Deer getting

Zack Donovant (01:03:43):
202 60 Aley.

Andrew (01:03:44):
Okay.

Hunter (01:03:45):
Two 60 Aley High 60, huh? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:03:47):
Okay. And and seven Psalm and seven Psalm improved.

Andrew (01:03:51):
I know that's Tony's speed. Yeah. Short, short light, fast.

Zack Donovant (01:03:54):
That's right. Okay.

Andrew (01:03:56):
So saves your powder, keeps your speed

Zack Donovant (01:03:58):
Here. We're doing a lot of, you know, doing a lot of two 60 ACC athletes. Of course you always have your creed mows that are sure. That are coming in. But, but it seems like Fort Ronnie, like you're saying, northwestern North Carolina into Eastern North Carolina all over, uh, two 60 Aley. Seven Psalm seven Psalm improve. Those are the, the hot cartridges right now for the literally

Hunter (01:04:18):
Yeah. Yeah,

Andrew (01:04:18):
Exactly. They're hot. Literally

Zack Donovant (01:04:20):
<laugh> and uh, and a little bit of everything in between. It's hard to say, you know, we're, we're seeing some steam with some six five prc. Yeah,

Hunter (01:04:27):
I was gonna say I'm sure the PRCS probably picked

Zack Donovant (01:04:30):
Up. Yeah, that's right. Um, you know, and it's the six five prcs a a little bit tricky. Um, when you start talking about what bullet you want to shoot. Yeah. Bullet length cuz it's an

Andrew (01:04:40):
Intermediate length. Length is funny.

Zack Donovant (01:04:42):
Exactly. It's an intermediate size case. It's too long for a short action. It's too short for a long action. Yeah. So you kind of gotta get that in between or, or you're choking it down seating the bullet back in where it'll feed out of a short action

Andrew (01:04:58):
Yeah. And restricting what it'll shoot.

Zack Donovant (01:04:59):
Exactly. Okay. So there's no point in having the hot rod if you're not gonna hot rod it. Bingo.

Andrew (01:05:05):
You know, uh, that's why you stretch at sgw over 26 inches <laugh>. You get all you can get. Man, that gun screams that gun. Just good. 1 43 hammers at 3,300 feet per second.

Hunter (01:05:15):
Last question.

Andrew (01:05:17):
Um, best deer hunting caliber in Virginia. Yeah. I I a factory

Zack Donovant (01:05:21):
Caliber. 30 th I'm just kidding.

Andrew (01:05:23):
<laugh> <laugh> 300 yard and in do it all

Zack Donovant (01:05:27):
Six five Creedmore.

Andrew (01:05:28):
Okay. Okay. Best that was, that was in the runnings.

Zack Donovant (01:05:30):
Yeah. That that, I mean and

Andrew (01:05:32):
That's coming from, that's coming from, that's coming from a custom builder. Yeah. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:05:35):
I listened to, I listened to your podcast on Best Virginia Deer rifle and as I was pulling hair out <laugh> listening to, to

Andrew (01:05:44):
The old man two 70. Yeah. Yeah. To the

Zack Donovant (01:05:47):
2 70 30 odd, 6 30, 32 64 win Mag. I thought Okay guys,

Andrew (01:05:53):
Come on. What'd you listen to it in half speed. Cuz you pulled most of your hair out. Yeah, yeah,

Zack Donovant (01:05:56):
I know. Yeah.

Andrew (01:05:57):
I did look like you, I listened to it looked like you hadn't grown back <laugh>. Yeah,

Zack Donovant (01:05:59):
I listened to it too many times. There you, it's a problem. So I kept doing it repeatedly.

Andrew (01:06:03):
Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:06:04):
And uh, man, so no, it, I would say if you're shooting a factory rifle bang

Andrew (01:06:10):
For your buck

Zack Donovant (01:06:11):
Factory rifle, factory ammunition, they're in 65 Creedmore. Okay. Because the, for many reasons, you know, you can buy Aika, you can buy a Remington, you can buy Rugers

Andrew (01:06:27):
Brown and Chester,

Zack Donovant (01:06:28):
Whatever you wanna buy from here at Green Top, you have 'em on the shelf and you also have selection of ammunition if you're a horny guy. Yeah. If you're a nozzle guy, if you're a burger guy, you have all that readily available, you know, at your fingertips. It

Andrew (01:06:44):
Is 100% the most popular

Zack Donovant (01:06:45):
Caliber. Yeah. And, and it's, it is taken over. It's, um, very, very light recall. If you have somebody that's, uh, recall sensitive mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, or even bang sensitive, you know, a lot of us think that we're, we're recall sensitive, but it's not, it's percussion. Yeah. You know, you have that percuss that percussion sensitivity and you don't get that with that, you know, with those smaller cases but still, um, you know, be very effective down range. Yeah. And you take that six five bullet with that high BC very accurate. Um, yeah. Low recall. So it will make a better shooter out of you than shooting Andrew seven s t w that will outshoot it <laugh> that will outshoot a lot of rifles Sure. But because of the, the percussion and also the recall.

Andrew (01:07:35):
Sure. It throws a lot of people outta the conversation.

Zack Donovant (01:07:37):
It throws a lot of people outta the conversation. Yep.

Andrew (01:07:38):
Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:07:39):
So now I'm

Andrew (01:07:40):
Unlike all his fingers pointing to me cuz Hunter shoots 300 rum.

Zack Donovant (01:07:42):
Yeah. He does shoot it three,

Andrew (01:07:43):
Which is another grandpa that's a old man. Big grandpa caliber. Well

Zack Donovant (01:07:48):
Not, it's not quite so a grandpa caliber cuz the rum hasn't been out. It's

Andrew (01:07:52):
Ricky Davidson approved. It is. That's true. It is R d's all approved all matters. Yeah. Yeah. That's all the r and d you need is Ricky Davidson. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:07:59):
Well, and I did put a nice muzzle break on that for you.

Andrew (01:08:01):
That's right. Yeah. Custom bolt.

Zack Donovant (01:08:03):
Custom bolt. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, um, no, the the, the idea for me, if you, if I was telling somebody who was gonna shoot a factory rifle, factory ammunition, I don't know how you could get better for a Virginia Deer rifle, Freemont five Creek

Hunter (01:08:17):
Morning. Okay, that makes

Andrew (01:08:18):
Sense. Good to know. Heard it from your horse's mouth.

Hunter (01:08:20):
That's right. So, um, how can people find you?

Zack Donovant (01:08:25):
So you can go to the website, old dominion custom rifles.com. Okay. Um, we have a nice little website. There's a

Hunter (01:08:32):
Lot of pictures too. A lot

Zack Donovant (01:08:33):
Of pictures. Fun in the field. Pictures where it's, I get people that send me pictures from their, from Africa or from Alaska or, or right in the backyard Yeah. Of, of critters that they've, you know, harvested over the years. There's a lot of rifles on there that I've built competition and hunting rifles. Um, and then of course you can call, call my cell phone. I'll answer when I can. Yeah. So.

Hunter (01:08:56):
Well, you're a busy guy. Yeah. Um, well thanks for being here, you know. Yeah. I appreciate it. Um, we'll, we'll probably need to dive into another aspect of this because rifle ballistics are, are for me, they're just, it's one of those topics that you could just talk about, Renee.

Andrew (01:09:12):
It's a black hole.

Hunter (01:09:13):
Yeah, yeah. It really is. So we could, you know, maybe what we'll do is, um, there's a specific, uh, part of ballistics that anybody that, that our listeners want to hear about or know more about. We'll, we'll identify what that is. Sure. Bring you back on for that. That'd be great. Maybe we could bring him and Ricky both. Sure. Oh. And have a debate. Yeah.

Andrew (01:09:31):
Be too much brain power. I'd have to open a window or something. That's,

Hunter (01:09:33):
That's, that's definitely new school. Old school. Correct, sir. You're because Zack, Zach, you're a young man. How old are you?

Zack Donovant (01:09:38):
37.

Hunter (01:09:38):
37. So it's a young man and he's well accomplished

Andrew (01:09:42):
And Ricky's like

Hunter (01:09:43):
A hundred. Yeah. He's

Andrew (01:09:44):
Like, and he told me to builds Stw. So that's where you get that's where I'm getting my information from. Yeah.

Zack Donovant (01:09:49):
<laugh>. That's because he had some brass that he couldn't get rid of no matter what he,

Andrew (01:09:52):
I'm trying to do. A buddy of his had some brass and couldn't get rid of and they got it from him. That's why you got Anw. Exactly. And he had a house load is

Zack Donovant (01:09:58):
He said. No, he didn't. He, he said, he said, I gotta find a sucker who I can get rid of this brass to who, who's the sucker here?

Hunter (01:10:06):
The Mohawk. Here I

Zack Donovant (01:10:07):
Am. The guy with the mohawk and the cowboy mustache. That's right. Fell right into that.

Andrew (01:10:11):
Me and that gun will get along just fine. Oh yeah, that's, that's right. <laugh>.

Hunter (01:10:14):
Well, cool. Hey Zach, thanks for being here and uh, well thank you for having Yeah. Appreciate it. Love to have you back sometime and we'll, uh, we'll pick a topic and we'll get you on here. Perfect. Thanks

Zack Donovant (01:10:21):
Guys.

Hunter (01:10:22):
Thanks. Yeah, ma'am.

Narrator (01:10:22):
Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the Green Greentop Outdoors Podcast. Hunting, fishing, and all things outdoors. It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle like, and subscribe to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And learn more about greentop at greentophuntfish.com.