The 28 Gauge Shotgun

Hunter, Travis, and Michael talk about the legendary 28 gauge. This underrated shotgun caliber has flown under the radar for decades. Recently, it has seen a surge in popularity. In this episode, they not only discuss the history of the 28 gauge, but also its efficiency, the various uses for it, and why they say that “It’s not supposed to be this good.”

Narrator (00:02):
Hunting, fishing, and all things outdoors. It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Welcome to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast with your host, Hunter Brooks.

Hunter (00:13):
All right. Welcome to another episode of the Greentop Outdoors Podcast. Today, uh, Travis Barrett and Michael Patello are joining me to talk about, uh, a little, uh, a little fella, a little, a little gauge. Right. A

Michael (00:26):
Little fella.

Hunter (00:27):
Yeah. The old 28 gauge the

Michael (00:28):
Littlest,

Hunter (00:28):
But not the smallest.

Michael (00:30):
A little one in comparison to its more popular Brothers of 12 and 20. Yeah.

Hunter (00:34):
We thought it'd be a good idea to discuss, uh, just the 28 gauge in general, because it's, it's kind of like, it's, it's one, it's one of those gauges that's been kind of forgotten over the years, but it's, it's kind of flown under the radar as just one of your better.

Travis (00:51):
Yeah. But it's kind of making the comeback.

Hunter (00:53):
Yeah. I would say, yeah, you're right.

Travis (00:54):
For years it was popular in American Skeet and a lot of guys that knew what it was, used it for a small game or upland hunting, but it's a pretty potent Yeah. Gauge when you, when you come down to it. I mean, for its size, it's much better than a 410. Yeah,

Hunter (01:11):
Absolutely. Before we get into the specifics on 28 Gauge, how, how's everybody doing, Michael? How you doing, man?

Michael (01:17):
You know, I'm doing well. When I sat down, uh, today I was looking at Travis's watch. Did you see that? Watch? Yeah. That's a nice looking watch.

Hunter (01:25):
It is a nice watch.

Michael (01:26):
And I like the shirt that you have on today.

Hunter (01:29):
Y thank you.

Michael (01:30):
Yes. Is it, is that corduroy?

Hunter (01:32):
That is,

Michael (01:32):
Man, it feels nice. Yeah. But yeah, so that's made my day already. That's,

Hunter (01:36):
That's a mar That's a marsh wear shirt, man. In fact, I think, I think you're,

Michael (01:40):
Where'd you get that shirt?

Hunter (01:41):
I got it at Green Top Sporting Goods.

Travis (01:43):
<laugh>. There you go.

Hunter (01:45):
It is sharp. It is sharp. I make this, it actually, I think I make this shirt look good. I don't know about you,

Michael (01:50):
But well wait till you see the one that I got. Cause that the same color at home. Oh,

Hunter (01:53):
Yeah. <laugh>. I expect to see it on Wednesday. Call

Michael (01:56):
Me when you're wearing yours. <laugh>

Travis (01:58):
<laugh>. No, don't do that. <laugh>.

Hunter (02:00):
So, uh, Travis, how you doing? I'm

Travis (02:02):
Doing well.

Hunter (02:03):
Yeah. So, uh, you guys have been, uh, I guess before we get into this too, you know, sporting Clay's season is, is well on its way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's, we are in, in it right now, right? Yep. Um, you guys been shooting much?

Michael (02:16):
Uh, I shot this past weekend, um, in Virginia, uh, something called the Homestead Cup, which was a popular shoot a long, long time ago. And they're trying to breathe some life back into it. Yeah. First time ever shooting there. Enjoyed it. Uh, treated like a king. Um, you pay for that service. But I, the older I get, I was talking to Travis earlier today, I want to be taken care of the older I get. That's right. I, I understand. I will pay for peace and quiet and a good, a better cup of coffee than I can get, you know, anywhere else. So it was a good time.

Hunter (02:47):
What about you, Travis? Been shooting much,

Travis (02:49):
Uh, a little bit. Been shooting a little bit locally. I'm gonna hit the road next month, go to the North Carolina state, shoot in the middle of May. Then we have the Virginia State shoot second week in June. That's being hosted by Arrowhead Gun Club first time. So looking forward to that. Then I got to South Carolina State, I'm gonna shoot in September.

Hunter (03:07):
Okay. Nice. Is, uh, is the shotgun swinging good? Kinda like the, like, I guess, you know, when you ask a golfer, how's the, how's the club swinging?

Michael (03:16):
It's the shotgun swinging good. Yeah. I gotta say yes.

Travis (03:19):
Yeah, it's kinda like golf. You know, some days you hit the woods better than the irons. Some days you hit the crosser. It's better than the loopers.

Michael (03:25):
And I always tell people if my eyes and hands are not fighting with each other, it's a good day. Every single when they don't get along <laugh>. Yeah. And it's a long day <laugh>. Right.

Hunter (03:34):
It's frustrating. Gets frustrating. Absolutely.

Michael (03:36):
Yeah. Yep. But, you know, I, I enjoy it. It's, it's a good time. It's a good way to shut down your injuries en, en uh, engines and recharge your batteries and just enjoy good friends. Yeah. Like Travis when I see him out there. Yeah, that's

Hunter (03:49):
Right. Well, let's get into 28 gauge. All

Travis (03:52):
Right.

Michael (03:52):
Okay.

Hunter (03:53):
Um, historically it's, uh, it was, it was I guess rumored that, um, Parker Brothers invented the 28 gauge, but that is actually false from what I've understood. Is that correct, Travis?

Travis (04:05):
Yeah, from what I've researched, it's about the 1880s. It was found in some British literature, but the first to come to America, Parker started making them in the early 20th century.

Hunter (04:15):
Okay. In the side by side, first American and gun maker was, was deathly Parker. But the, I guess the, uh, genesis or origination of the 28 gauges in Europe or, uh, England. Yeah. To be more precise. Okay. Yeah. There

Michael (04:28):
Was a wise man that said that, um, you know, if it was on the internet, which we looked, we all looked that up, it was true. And that man was Abraham Lincoln. So I think <laugh> that, that's it. That's correct. Information we're giving people today, <laugh>,

Travis (04:42):
Sorry.

Hunter (04:43):
Um, so in general, it fits right between 410 and 20 gauge.

Travis (04:52):
Yeah.

Hunter (04:53):
And then

Travis (04:54):
To me though, it's very close to a 20 with less recoil. Yeah.

Hunter (04:58):
So you're, you're, you're shot your, your typical load for a 28 gauge tar, like I said, a target load is a three-quarter ounce load. Is that correct? Correct. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And now, whether now if you go to like a, a heavy field field load or a high brass load, do you, how high do you go? Do you, you go up to one ounce or one ounce? Yeah. So one ounce is about your max load on a 28 gauge. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yes. Okay. Um,

Travis (05:20):
Yeah, some of your lead load, heavy lead loads are seven eights and an ounce, uh, average velocity on your three quarter ounce stuff's 12, 1300 feet per second.

Hunter (05:29):
Okay. You know, and, and I looked, they, they talk a lot about, um, a square load mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they talk like it's the 28 gauge is the, uh, the more perfect square load because it's, it's it's same size and width and height. It's, it's same optimal size and width and height. Is that correct? Is that what a square load is? Yeah,

Michael (05:53):
I, I would call it efficient. I don't know that I would use square, but I understand the term. Yeah. It, it's, it is efficient for the size case that it comes in, the energy, the killing power and the pattern that it gives. Right. Anything below or above that is either arguably overkill in some, in a lot of situations or just a touch light where the lighter you get, the less room for error and heavier you get, you have more room for error, but that comes at a cost. Right. Which is recoil.

Hunter (06:26):
Which is Yeah. Recoil

Travis (06:27):
Or it doesn't pattern as well. Correct. You know, for those of you that wonder what a square load is, basically it's the payload height in the hu equals the bore diameter.

Hunter (06:37):
Yeah. Okay. Which, that's

Travis (06:38):
Where they come up with Square.

Hunter (06:39):
But, but they, and they also say that there's, there's really not a true square load for any gauge. I mean, it's kind of a myth that the 28 gauge is, is the perfect square load.

Travis (06:47):
They also say a 16 gauges as well.

Hunter (06:49):
Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Travis (06:50):
<affirmative>. Yeah. I think it's a lot of European terminology to that, but it makes sense. Yeah.

Hunter (06:56):
Yeah. I think from what I've always heard, everyone's always said it's the best kept secret because it patterns the best, it recoils the less, and it's, how, how would I put it? It's, it's just better than, it's, it's actually better than it's supposed to be, if that makes sense. Like it shouldn't, it shouldn't be as good as it is. I guess. It just, it just worked out to be that way. But I, I don't really think that makes much sense to me, but,

Michael (07:23):
Well, I think it's more of a, um, a cultural thing that, especially in America, everything that's bigger is better. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we have Cadillacs over here. You don't see those overseas. You don't see those in, you don't see those Giant think bigger is better. At one time a 10 gauge was being touted as you have to Kelly Turkey with a 10 gauge. Yeah. Or you're gonna lose a bird. And now at Green Top we sell TSS shot and 410 loads because the technology has caught up with, you know, what we're producing and we're able to do better with it. And the 28 just kind of slipped through people who know know. Yeah. People who don't know are like, I'm not sure, I haven't heard about that, but they've heard of a 410 and they've heard of a 12 and then everything else is kind of in the middle. Yeah. You know,

Travis (08:06):
I think if cuz of the region we live with the deer hunting and the buckshot aspect, if they made 28 gauge buckshot 30 years ago, it'd been a whole lot more popular than it is now. Sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> because you know, a 28 gauge, you'll sit back and prime example, we had a 28 gauge shoot up at Bull Run. Yep. Mike ran it, it's called the 28 gauge nationals. The course was set harder than the 12 gauge course and I mean you could break targets 40, 45 yards with authority. So if you do what you'd supposed to do correctly, the gun's plenty. Sure. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're not as under gunned as you think. Most people when they pick up a sub gauge, they feel like they're handicapped already. Yeah. Just go out there and shoot it like you would your normal gun.

Hunter (08:50):
So I'm glad you brought that up because I look, I was doing some reading on some actual tests that they ran with a 28 gauge compared to other ones. And let's, one of the tests they did is, um, they measured, you know, your shot, uh, shot efficiency mm-hmm. <affirmative> at 40 yards, but I think they were measuring it on a moving target at 40 yards. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, and the 28 gauge did not do as well as the 16 and the 20 at 40 yards. Now if you dropped it back to 30 yards, totally different story. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Travis (09:25):
They say the effective range is 30 to 35. Right. Not that you can't hit something further or kill something further.

Hunter (09:31):
Exactly. So, I mean, depending on what distance you're testing at, and I guess 40 is your optimal shot for shotgun. That's where that's, I guess that's the range where most people test everything. But for a sub gauge it's a little bit more difficult cuz it, they're kind of handicapped at that, at that range where at 30 when we're getting into like say skeet shooting on a skeete field or something like that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, well, I mean, most of your shots on a sket field are less than that 21

Travis (09:56):
Or less. It's

Hunter (09:57):
21 or less

Travis (09:58):
Is what most people.

Hunter (09:59):
Yeah. So a lot of people argue that on a skeete field, the, the, the 28 is just, it's, it's nasty because of the, the shot. Um, I guess the shot thread that it throws

Michael (10:10):
Efficiency. Well, Mike,

Hunter (10:11):
The efficiency. Yes. Efficiency. Mike will

Travis (10:13):
Tell you, back when we were shooting a lot of sket before we got into sporting plays, everybody's favorite gun to shoot was the 28. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> plus you could load it cheaper, you could shoot it all day, you weren't bruised and beat up from recoil. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and most people scores, whereas good or better in 28 as they were the 20 gauge, because I think of the less recoil and the confidence they had in it.

Hunter (10:36):
That's what I was gonna ask cuz y'all, y'all used to shoot a lot of skeet. How, how did the scores compare when guys shot 28 comparing to, to other, I mean I know skeet the game in is to be perfect. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. So I mean of course scores would be high, but I mean 28 and I mean the smaller you get in the gauges, it's gotta get, it's gotta get tougher. But with 28, was it,

Travis (10:56):
Well we have seven different classes if you looked at the top four classes because the other classes, they're working their way up, they're still learning. Those guys shot 28 just as well as they did their 20. Okay. Some even maybe a little better. Sure. And a lot of guys shot 20 gauge and 12 gauge event because of the recoil factor. Yeah.

Michael (11:14):
Yeah. I think, you know, another part of it is, and we get this a lot there, there is a place in your life for every gauge that's made, if you're starting out you can get a single shot, 410, you can teach gun safety, you can do those things. But sometimes if you get, um, let's just say, you know, a guy brings his wife in and she's never shot before and his theory would be, I want to get her a 410. I try to steer them towards a 28 gauge. And the reason is, is that if you are a new shooter and a 410 has such a less payload to it shooting's about confidence. Yeah. And if I can get 'em a 28 gauge, which I know and Travis knows can break birds at 40 times the distance that a new shooter would be shooting, it's the gun to have be gauge that because the recoils down, they, they're confident cuz they're hitting what they're looking at and it just builds on that. And they may stay with that 28 gauge the rest of their shooting days. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Travis (12:13):
Yeah. Yeah. I used to tell customers that too. They come in looking for something for their child. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and a 410 s Great. If you go shoot a stationary target, like a,

Michael (12:21):
If you're a squirrel

Travis (12:22):
Hunter, a soda can Yeah. Or a squirrel hunter or

Hunter (12:25):
Paper target

Travis (12:26):
Or whatever, like you say, to teach the basics or the very introduction mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But most adults can't have a real successful hunting day with a 410. It's, it's why they call it the experts gauge, but Right. It it, you gotta be a very skilled wing shooter to be successful with a 410 on a regular basis. Sure.

Michael (12:42):
Yeah. And I tell you the, the thing here is when we carry, when when we have them in stock, when you do carry them, um, is we have some Caesar Gini that'll be 28 gauge, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> and when women shooters pick those up, the upper body strength is the difference. Women smart and smarter than men in a lot of situations. The, uh, the, the eyesight, the iq, all that stuff, it's the upper body strength that splits the classes. And when they pick up a 28 gauge barreled Caesar Gini that's fit to them. I mean, it doesn't matter how much it costs, I want that gun. Right. Because they know and it's just, it's such a fluid, easy gun for them to shoot mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and it's, and it's good for us too. And like, like Travis said, I think a lot of guys shoot and girls shoot better a 28 gauge because there's less barrel movement between shots where you really have to control that barrel and you don't think about it when you shoot a lot. But it is there, there's, there's a reason why there's porting, there's a reason why there's heavier chokes. But that 28 gauge just the gun just stabilizes itself so well to go from target to target because it's not jumping or moving.

Hunter (13:51):
So, and, and it's not, it's, it's not that like a 28 gauge just patterns better than any other gauge. It's just, cuz that's all, that's all regulated by chokes. I mean we can all agree there right.

Michael (14:01):
Ab Absolutely.

Travis (14:02):
For the most part. Yeah, absolutely. Quality of shell that you're shooting. Sure. Uh, you still have to do your homework and find what's best for your gun. Yeah,

Hunter (14:09):
Yeah. Because

Travis (14:10):
It's not one shell's best for every gun. We all know that certain shells are more consistent. Yeah, sure. But it's different on a case by case basis.

Hunter (14:19):
So, um, it's, I guess it's, it's the 28 gauges effectiveness if, you know, like 12 gauge has so many different uses for 12 gauge. Oh yeah. Whether it's slugs or steel shot, buckshot, target loads, whatever range you get, 28 is very effective in either small game wing shooting or clay or clays. Yep. Agreeable there. That, that would be the three applications. That's the three best applications there. Um, and we talked about one of the, the pros and cons of it. Uh, I, I think there's more pros to the 28 Gs than there are cons. Mainly based on kind of what you were just saying, Michael, um, the, the weight of the gun itself mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, let's just talk about that cuz a lot of, cuz we're gonna get into some of the different model shotguns that are out that are available right now in the different price ranges. But they all have one thing in common. They're all very lightweight

Michael (15:12):
Y Yes. Yes. And I would say that, you know, I tell people this every day a hunting gun is made to be walked a lot and shot very little or a target gun shot more and walked less. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you want some mass in that gun weight to smooth out your swing and to absorb recoil and that's just physics. Sure. When you're hunting and you're walking around, you want a lighter gun to shoot. The way the 12 gauge has dominated for so long is they, they play with the shell. They take the shell and say, let's make an and a quarter, let's make an announce and an eighth let's make an announce. You know what, let's make it seven eighths ounce. So when someone buys a 12 gauge, they're looking for the shell that they can find on the shelves for the application they wanna shoot, whether it's ducks, clays or introduce a new shooter to shooting with that 12 gauge gun, a seven eight ounce load. The way 28 gauge does it is they have a few loads and they lengthen the gun to 32 inches to put some weight to smooth the gun out to shoot targets or big high crossing doves or they shorten the gun to make it lighter to shoot quail, woodcock, stuff like that. So if you know your application, that's one of the first questions I ask people when they come in the store, what is the goal mm-hmm. <affirmative> and when they tell me that goal, I can marry them to the cart. The gauge slash gun.

Hunter (16:37):
Yeah. Okay. Because going to wait, you know, shooting tube sets, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative> like in skeet, you know, a lot of guys will have a 12 gauge base gun and they're gonna have Kohler or Bri tube sets mm-hmm. <affirmative> within the gun. So they're shooting the same weight gun all the time. Um, as, uh, you know, just, just cuz in sket you shoot all four gauges, it's easier to do it that way. Um, and like you said, it's a target gun weight. The weight of the gun is kind of, it's not very, it's not exact exactly. Relevant to being, you know, a lighter gun. It, it's being a heavier gun is gonna be the important part cause you're shooting it a lot more.

Michael (17:13):
Sure. I mean, and then Travis can chime in on this. Everybody's got a a, a f a favorite weight of a gun. You, you don't fight the gun, meaning you don't have to pull it to slow it down or push it really hard to get it to move. And that's something different for, for everybody when they do that. Um, so yeah. What do you think about that, Travis?

Travis (17:32):
Yeah, I agree. I always, you know, for any kind of clay shooting, whether it's skit or sporting trap, whatever, I like a heavier gun, eight and a half to nine pounds. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if I'm going hunting, give me a seven and a half pound gun off the shelf or less. Right. Depending on what kind of hunting we're doing. Absolutely. If we're gonna go quail hunting, like you say, where you're gonna walk three or four miles and shoot 10 shells. I like the light real lightweight.

Michael (17:54):
Absolutely. And a duck blind. I'm sitting there the gun. Exactly. I'm not holding the gun. And I, and I'm gonna shoot probably cuz it's steel. I'm gonna be shooting, you know, a

Travis (18:03):
Magnum loads.

Michael (18:04):
Right. But there's some guys who come in the store who are just blown away by the effectiveness of a 28 gauge in a duck blind. Sure. They're shooting puddle ducks. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, and just dish rag dead, just Oh yeah. I mean, folding them up. Yep.

Hunter (18:19):
Yeah. Well, and the shell technology, I mean we're, you know, we're living in the golden age of ammo right now and the shell, the shell technology and the choke technology. Now, whether it's TSS stuff for Turkey, I mean, look how many guys are just slaying gobblers in the springtime with, uh, four tens and 20 eights and twenties. Yep. You know, who's, no one's really carrying a 12 gauge anymore, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you don't really need to. Well,

Travis (18:39):
They are, but I mean, not like it used to be. Not like it used to.

Hunter (18:42):
12 gauge. Yeah. Right. Um, but let's get back into the gun. So, uh, in a, in a field gun, if, if you're just, uh, if you're a rabbit hunter, squirrel hunter, bird hunter, you know, there's a lot of options out there in 28 gauge that kind of mirror. Like, let's just take Baretta and Benelli for instance. They've gotta be two of the top ones there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, they kind of mirror their 12 and 20 gauge I guess siblings in, in the, in the, the, the family of shotguns. They're just in a little bit smaller frame lighter weight. Um, and sometimes people pick these up and they're like, oh my gosh, this is, it's incredible how light this gun is. This gun's gotta kick. But obviously, you know, uh, you get a lighter recall with 28 gauge, but, um, going to a lighter gun's even better. Especially if you're field hunting.

Michael (19:33):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean Beretta, Beretta makes actually, uh, something called a baby frame. Uh, and it's a scaled down frame that fits. It marries up better to a 28 gauge set of barrels. They used to take a 20 gauge frame and all companies did it and they just put 20 ga gauge barrels on a 20 gauge frame. Sure. So you get that sleekness of it. What's cool about a 28 gauge is that there's enough metal and wood to put some nice engraving on it. It looks pretty good where a 410 looks pretty dainty. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which a 410 engraved nice hunting gun to me belongs on a high end, um, uh, quail hunt on a plantation somewhere or on the other end of the spectrum, shooting some rabbits and stuff, walking behind some beagles somewhere, you know, and the 28 does both of those things even better and more efficiently in my opinion. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>

Travis (20:26):
And if you're a hardcore water fowler, you know, Benelli came out with the Super Black Eagle three last year.

Hunter (20:31):
Yep. 28 gauge

Travis (20:32):
Three inch chamber, you know. Yeah. Because now the manufacturers are making some non-toxic loads for duck hunting. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

Michael (20:39):
Well they have a shelf life about 48 hours here when they show up.

Travis (20:42):
Yeah, yeah. When we get 'em, they don't sit long, that's for sure.

Hunter (20:44):
Well, yeah. So I mean, to go back to the shell itself, uh, for the longest time it was just a two and three quarter inch shell until some of the, I think it was either, I guess it was federal, but before federal there was another brand

Travis (20:56):
Fii, I think Fi

Hunter (20:58):
Might have been doing the first three inch. And then, um, there was another smaller brand I think, I can't remember the name of them. Uh, but, um, now a lot of the guns are coming three inch chambered mm-hmm. <affirmative> of course, where a lot of the older stuff that's already been made, uh, you know, it's obviously they were just two and three quarter inch only. Uh, but that's another, uh, great addition is, is is the capability of going three inch versus two and Threequarter. Yeah. Um, benelli the ethos as, as well as uh, not the ethos, which, uh, is the ethos 28 now. Yeah.

Travis (21:30):
Uh, the ultra light, they make an ultra light model, they make the Super Black Eagle three. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you drop down into the Frankie, which is part of the Ban Benelli family and you can get the over and unders Correct. Yep. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yep. Instincts, um, instincts. Yes. Uh, Beretta has the A 400 plus all the 6 86 Silver Pigeon series. Yeah. Browning does the ator line in 28 gauge you also do a B BPS pump.

Hunter (21:57):
Yep. Now Frankie, you, they were probably the first auto loader in 28 gauge, weren't they in the 48?

Travis (22:04):
Yeah. Remember we used to carry those

Hunter (22:05):
Yeah. A long time ago. Yeah.

Travis (22:07):
That was a recoil operated, so it still had a little pop to it, but, but it was a very light gun and a lot of the quail hunters liked it.

Hunter (22:13):
Exactly. Yeah. And that was probably, I guess, uh, I guess it was when they've initially came out with those, was it the sixties or the seventies when the 28 was out in that auto? I can't, I, I don't know for sure on that. I would, it could have been later than that, you know, cuz I know the twenties and the sixteens were always popular then. And maybe the 28 came later. Maybe it was in the eighties or something.

Travis (22:33):
Yeah, I know. Uh, I came here in the early nineties and I wanna say they were either out or just came out.

Hunter (22:39):
Yeah.

Travis (22:40):
And if you, if you don't want to be in that price point, there's other companies that make a 28 gauge, whether it be auto or cyber side or over under, you got Mossberg, savage, cz. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, if you go single barrel route for the Turkey hunting Yep. You know, you got other stuff that's go as well. But

Hunter (22:57):
Yeah, the Cz Hulu stuff that's outta Turkey. There's a lot of great, great shark over and unders and side-by-sides there. Yep. Um, because you know, it's, you can't be afraid to go double barrel with this gauge because it's uh, it's cuz it's light recall.

Travis (23:10):
It's, it's like the gentleman's gauge.

Hunter (23:12):
Yeah, there you go.

Michael (23:13):
Right. And those guns get you into a classic lined gun with a arguably one of the most classic calab uh, gauges at a decent price. Yeah. You don't have to spend 2, 3, 5 and the ceiling is limitless in those 28 gauge side-by-side. Yeah. You can get a nice $800 side by side that'll kill quail, kill rabbits, chucker chucker, anything chucker and look good.

Hunter (23:37):
That's Yeah. Look good while you're shooting it. Right. You

Michael (23:39):
Have to look good while you're shooting it.

Travis (23:41):
<laugh>. Yeah. You can take the extra money and buy some tweeds and Oh my gosh. Nice tie.

Michael (23:44):
Oh my gosh. Stop it. <laugh>, stop it.

Travis (23:47):
<laugh>.

Hunter (23:48):
Well, you know, another thing too is it's fast cuz being a lighter gun in the field, you can, you can, you can pull that gun up, you can swing it fast. You can, you can get on your target pretty quick too cuz uh, it's not like a sporting clays or or skeete where you're already, you're already prepped. You're already mounted the gun and everything's ready to go. You can usually do it. Cuz most of these autos or or over and unders, they're typically what, five pound guns?

Travis (24:12):
If that Five to six and a half? Yeah,

Hunter (24:13):
Yeah, yeah. Depending on which model. Yeah.

Michael (24:15):
Okay. And, and depend, I mean wood density, is it synthetic as it wood barrel lengths, all that stuff matters. But to your point, you know, when you're hunting, uh, you don't know when the bird's gonna get up, even if the dog is pointing it right. You don't know if it's gonna flush from a tree or get out in front of you. So you're more, I would say spot shooting unless you get some big crossing goose or dove, you know, coming across a field and clay's Travis and I make a plan so we know how fast or slow to move the gun. And I think you're at a disadvantage with a heavy gun unless you're past shooting geese on the eastern shore, you know, when you're hunting you should have a a, a gun needs to be dynamic. So it needs to be heavy when it needs to be and light when it needs to be. That's the perfect clay gun. Yeah. And the 28 gauge does that perfectly in the field. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as far as, you know, payload versus gun weight.

Hunter (25:07):
Do, do y'all go to some shoots that are sporting clay on a sporting clay course? Sporting clay shoots that are, uh, strictly sub gauge shoots. You mentioned that before. Yep.

Travis (25:16):
Yeah, they used to have the one, I don't know if they still do this, is

Hunter (25:20):
That bull run?

Travis (25:21):
Yeah, it was at Bull Run, but it was strictly 28 gauge. But all of your big shoots, they, they have other events. They do a 12 gauge sub gauge, which usually is a 50 bird 12 gauge event. They do a 20, a 28, a 410, then they do a pump and a side by side. So whatever you want to play with you can, but 28 gauge is popular. And now they've even gone to fee task, which is an old school game where you stand in the hula hoop and you got the menu and you have to start low gun. Now they're starting to do sub gauge fee task, which is taken off in big time popularity.

Michael (25:58):
Hmm. And they, uh, Rick, uh, just did a 28 gauge, um, at the Gator Cup Super sporting. Yeah. Which was from the beginning of time a 12 gauge game. Uh, and now the 28 gauge. And you know, a lot of the, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, but a lot of the older shooters enjoy those sub gauges cuz it's just, you know, they, they've worked their whole life. They're, they're wearing down. Our bodies are only gonna last for so long. So it's easy on their shoulder, it's easy, you know, on them to shoot. They can still enjoy the game. It's not beating them up. It's not, sometimes people get a flinch so they go down in a lower gauge to mm-hmm. <affirmative> to help that or they see it coming and they move on. So it works. Yeah.

Travis (26:41):
And it gives you a chance to go shoot of the day. I mean, if you had to shoot two or 300 rounds of 12 gauge, you're sore at the end of the day. Oh yeah. I don't care whether you don't fit you good or not. Yeah. But when you're shooting 150 or 200 rounds of that sub gauge, you don't feel it. I mean, you're not as beat

Hunter (26:58):
Up. Yeah.

Michael (26:59):
Yeah. Greed,

Hunter (27:01):
Dove field be good too. It'd be fun in a dove field, right?

Travis (27:04):
Yeah. If you need a light line. Yeah.

Hunter (27:06):
<laugh>

Michael (27:06):
A 30, a 32 inch, 28 gauge over and under would be sweet. Oh

Travis (27:11):
Yeah.

Hunter (27:12):
If the catch 'em catch ve 30 yards. 30 yards an in man. Just you can smoke 'em. That's

Michael (27:16):
Right.

Travis (27:17):
Well, that's the mistake. Most people make dove hunting anyway. Yeah. They get impatient and take a long crazy shot where if they would've waited, they probably would've had a better shot and a higher success

Hunter (27:26):
Rate. That's right.

Michael (27:27):
Always, always sit opposite the field of the guy, you know, that can't shoot because when he shoots at it, it'll push the bird towards you. That's right. Exactly. You kill it when it comes to you.

Hunter (27:35):
Same secret. Yeah. <laugh> and you can yell thank you across the field after you keep dropping 'em. Right. Thank

Michael (27:41):
You Hunter. Oh, when you get,

Travis (27:43):
After you get your limb go, Hey man, why don't you come over here.

Michael (27:46):
Thank you Hunter. You need some more shells. Go back to your end the

Hunter (27:48):
Field. Yeah. Let 'em switch sides. Let 'em switch seats with you. Then you can just go across the field, other, other side of the field from 'em. Right, Travis? Yeah. <laugh>.

(27:57):
So, uh, so we talked a little bit about, um, the ladies shooting too and you know, they, they, this is a very popular caliber for the ladies because it's light on the recoil. It's uh, you know, the hardly any barrel lift on the gun, whether you're shooting it over and under or an auto mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, Gini, Caesar Greeny and uh, Beretta, they seem to have the smaller actions. Is that correct? Whereas I think Brownings are more built on a 20 gauge frame. So the browning would be the, the, like the satori or the 7 25 would be the heavier gun in a 28. But you're not talking a a huge difference

Travis (28:37):
In weight. No, no. Not a huge difference.

Michael (28:39):
Yeah. I I know, I know they separate out the 16 gauge on its own frame. Yeah. Dimensionally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's hard unless you really look at it side by side, take the barrels off and look at it. Yeah. But there was a time when they just slapped 16 gauge barrels on a frame, on a 20 gauge frame. Right. You know, so. Yeah.

Hunter (28:59):
Well, so maybe I'm thinking of Rossini. Rossini used to do a small body,

Travis (29:03):
A small body Yeah.

Hunter (29:04):
Which was, uh, built on a true 28 gauge or 410 frame. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. That's probably what I'm thinking

Michael (29:09):
Of, which is what Beretta started doing when they got away from the 20 gauge frame, 28 gauge barrels. Yeah. They did a baby frame and they did that because they could make it a combo and throw a 410 set of barrels on the scene. Yeah, yeah. And swap it out. Right. And before ammo started catching up, that was a way to have a dual purpose gun, meaning the gun being the trigger group and the receiver, a 28 gauge, 20 gauge barrel. I used to buy this from your guys before I worked here. And I, and that was, you know, efficient

Travis (29:38):
Something else on the ammo end, you know, when we've been through all pandemic and beyond with

Hunter (29:44):
Shortages and stuff

Travis (29:45):
Yeah. With shortages, we've always had a good supply of 28. Yeah. Versus 20 or 410.

Hunter (29:49):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> at the height of the, so

Travis (29:51):
That tells you there the manufacturers are strong behind it. Yeah. They believe in it.

Hunter (29:55):
Well, you know, and I, I think we picked up some new 28 gauge gun owners at the height of when, uh, it was hard to get ammo for stuff because, you know, everybody knows the 20 was one of the worst things. You, I mean, you couldn't find 20 gauge anywhere. Right. So, you know, the, the, there was an uptick in sales on 28 gauge shotguns. Yeah. Across the board. And I think more guys were starting to shoot 28, you know, during Dove season. I mean, how many guys walked in here? They wanted to shoot a 20. They, they couldn't find any ammos. So they bought, they picked up a 28 gauge off the shelf and said, I I'm gonna shoot a 28 gauge this fall. So there you go. It was, uh, it worked out good. You know, it's a win-win for us.

Michael (30:33):
That was a good sales technique keeping all the 20 gauge behind the wall. That's

Travis (30:37):
<laugh>. <laugh>.

Hunter (30:39):
That's right.

Michael (30:40):
Sold a lot of 28

Hunter (30:41):
Gauge. It was, it was, it was risky. But it paid off. Right? It did.

Michael (30:44):
It did. It did. Till we couldn't walk back there anymore. That's now we got 20 gauge everywhere.

Travis (30:48):
<laugh>.

Hunter (30:50):
Well, uh, what else did we, did we miss anything on 28 gauge? It was a

Travis (30:56):
Nothing I can think of.

Hunter (30:57):
Yeah. I mean, overall, if you haven't shot one, I'd recommend it. I mean, just, just try it out because it's, it's a pleasure to shoot one, you know, just getting it, it's like a, and you know, it's not like you're a sissy for shooting a 28 gauge. I mean it's, you know,

Michael (31:11):
It, Travis had it earlier, a gentleman's gun, you know, it's kind of cool. And, and if you're a female, obviously, you know, that doesn't apply. But it's, it's, um, it's classic. It's sweet, it's beautiful. I mean, the frame size matches the ga you can get some really heavy 12 gauges and you can get some really light ones and both of those are wrong for that gun. I've never seen an imperfect 28 gauge. It's always been done. Well, doesn't matter what the price point is and when you do it and you know, to shoot something with a 20 gauge or a 12 gauge or a 28 gauge, dead is dead. There's no such thing as debtor. You put a good shot on something or you break a clay. That's it. You cannot say, or n now let me revive you and shoot you again. Tell me which one killed you better. Yeah. It's just That's right. You gotta, you gotta put a good shot. That's it, period.

Hunter (32:01):
Well, that's the thing. A short, like, you know, you, you want a short string of pellets to hit your target, whether it's it's flying through the air as a, as a clay bird or, or a live bird or whatever. And it doesn't matter kind of what gauge it is, it's all that's all regulated by the choke. But a short string appellates is gonna hit hard no matter what gauge it is.

Michael (32:21):
Right. And, and efficient. An efficient string. Yeah. What the most efficient part of the pattern, you know, is is what it's what it's all about. And our game that Travis and I shoot a chip is just as good as a dirt ball. I mean, it's an, it's an x it's a hit. Right. But when you are shooting live game, what game

Travis (32:37):
Also also why we would say get the dog.

Michael (32:39):
Right, exactly. Because if

Travis (32:40):
It was a live bird, it'd be crippled. We'd have to

Hunter (32:42):
Retrieve Yeah. You'd have to go fight it.

Michael (32:43):
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

Travis (32:44):
Yeah. We're playing a game with points, you know, but the hunting's the whole different aspect.

Hunter (32:48):
Right, right, right. All right, well, um, as far as, uh, shot sizes go, I mean it's, it's your typical shot sizes in, in 28 gauge. Uh, your, your, whether your game loads, you're, you're pretty typical seeing number sixes seven and halfs high.

Travis (33:05):
Bring it up earlier. I was Did they even make fours anymore

Hunter (33:08):
In, you know, I haven't seen, I haven't seen any fours. You know,

Travis (33:11):
I hadn't either. I know back in the day,

Hunter (33:13):
Fives is about as big as I've seen it.

Travis (33:15):
No, we used to sell them on lot Remington to the rabbit hunters. Yep.

Hunter (33:19):
Now you might, I don't know if we'll see anything. I doubt you'll even see a larger shot size than a five even in like a TSS arrest or a

Travis (33:27):
Federal prairie storm or somebody more profe and hunting now it west.

Hunter (33:30):
Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Unless it, unless this, you know, if this pace keeps going the way it is and, and water fowlers pick up on it more, you may see a, like a, like a, a bismuth four or like a tungsten four or something

Travis (33:44):
Like that. Yeah. The problem is you can't go but so big because then you have no capacity.

Hunter (33:47):
Right. And I think that's,

Travis (33:48):
That's, that's, that's probably, you know, for people wondering why they don't make a two or a BB

Hunter (33:52):
Or Yeah. There's the threshold is right there,

Travis (33:54):
You know what I mean? Yeah. You've giving up a lot just to get a extra, you know, larger pellets in there. Exactly.

Hunter (33:59):
So, yeah. And so what's the point in going larger if it's just if past 30 yards you're really not doing anything anyway? Right. I mean, I guess, I guess it, it all balances out, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,

Travis (34:10):
I think it'd be cool flooded timber wood duck hunting with a 28 gauge.

Hunter (34:14):
Hell yeah man. You know,

Travis (34:15):
That'd be a lot of fun. They're usually pretty, not too far away in fast action. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that'd be an ideal thing I think for the early duck season. Yeah,

Hunter (34:23):
Absolutely. Yeah. Gotta be fast. Hmm. Um, but I guess going back to just a lot of people said that the 28 gauge was just, it was a lot better than it was supposed to be. I mean I, I guess there's some truth in that. I mean there's,

Michael (34:40):
Yeah, I think that um, you know, people used to hunt more than they do now, but I think it is starting to turn a little bit, I seeing more people get out and hunt and stuff. So there's an argument that skeet shooters kept the 28 gauge alive. Right? That's, yeah. That and there was a a time when, you know, a long time ago when, that's what Travis and I live for shooting Skeet and 28 Gauge. We were looking for it, we were trying to load it, we couldn't wait to shoot it. It was all the things that Travis said we were doing. Um, land is just harder to find to hunt on things like that. But the 28 gauge state and people started saying, I'm gonna come out and shoot a little bit and then they shoot it and then they get an opportunity to get a dog or to go hunt or Yeah.

(35:17):
Whatever. And they realize how beautiful that cartridge is. And I think if Skeet was not as popular in the US as it has been in the past, we wouldn't be having this conversation today. Yeah. It would kind of go the wayside of the 16 gauge, but certain things have a way coming around. You guys have been doing this forever, you know, and you see the 16 gauge and then everybody wants one, then they don't now everybody's looking, man, Travis, get that gun in for, where's that 16 gauge? Where's that a five 16 gauge? Everybody wants that gun.

Travis (35:45):
It's kind of made a comeback. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's funny how history repeats itself. It's

Hunter (35:49):
Right. Yeah. I mean it's good to see Browning doing the A five suite sixteens again, not just in the wood, but they're doing the camos now and they're doing the, the whole line. Oh yeah. And they're wick, they're sharp, wicked wings. All them, they're sharp. But yeah, I mean, you know, we talked about it even at the old store, Travis, that, you know, we always felt like when Skeet was dying, so was 28 gauge, it was just mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was kind of dying out. But then you saw that resurgence of 410 and I think, man, 410 just brought 28 right along. And now I think, I feel like 20 eight's just, just moving ahead of it, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Oh yeah. Uh, from, from a hunting perspective and just target shooting in general. Cuz it's good to see the sport in clay community is, is is I guess incorporating a lot of the more, more the, uh, shoots in with sub gauges and things like that, you know? Right. Oh yeah.

Travis (36:33):
Yeah.

Hunter (36:34):
But so well, um, I think that covers everything man. Thanks. Uh, thanks for doing this today guys. Absolutely.

Travis (36:41):
Absolutely.

Hunter (36:42):
Do you miss anything? Did we miss anything? Travis, you

Travis (36:43):
Good? No, we covered everything I had.

Hunter (36:46):
Well, um, there's your 28 gauge history lesson as good as it could have been. Come on

Travis (36:53):
Down, see us and we will fit you up with one.

Hunter (36:56):
Yeah. We got plenty of guns in stock and a lot of ammo in stock right now and uh, there's still plenty of Turkey loads too if you want to get one for Turkey hunting. A lot of guys having success with it, not just 410, but 28 gauges. Well, absolutely.

Travis (37:08):
And Dove season be here in four months.

Hunter (37:09):
That's right. Plenty of time to get that gun ready.

Travis (37:11):
Absolutely. Get out and get some practice. That's right. Shoot some clays and don't embarrass yourself on opening day.

Hunter (37:16):
Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm.

Travis (37:18):
<affirmative>.

Hunter (37:18):
Well, uh, good luck to you guys. I know y'all got some shoots coming up soon. Um, thanks for sitting down and doing this from the day.

Travis (37:24):
Yeah. Awesome. Always enjoy

Narrator (37:25):
It. Thanks for listening to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast, hunting, fishing, and all things outdoors. It's not just a hobby, it's a lifestyle like, and subscribe to the Greentop Outdoors Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and learn more about greentop at greentophuntfish.com.